Moving RWR

[dirtypool40]

Yes, thank you.

[SMSI]

OK. Say you have a "L" shaped hallway. There are three paper targets at your end of the hall way, which you engage first. There are 2 paper targets at the end of the hall, just before the hall turns left at 90 deg. You engage those 2 targets and then move toward them. Here is where I would re-load. When you turn left there are other targets, which you engage from around the corner (which is your cover). What difference is there in your "cover" between moving down the hall toward the neutralized targets and standing at the corner? You are exposed to the neutralized targets at the end of the hall anyway you look at it. Why can't you reload while moving down the hall? How is that different from re-loading at the corner?

If this is not a possible IDPA stage, then never mind.

[dirtypool40]

here is the scenario, so everyone is clear what I am asking;

Beep! move to either side of a doorway to a hall. At the other end of the hall there are three poppers and nothing else.

From cover I shoot the poppers, and all three go down. There are no more visible ENGAGEABLE targets in that hallway.

The quesiton is, as I move down the now completly target free hallway, CAN I RELOAD?

So far folks have consistently said "NO.".

[boo radley]

here is the scenario, so everyone is clear what I am asking;

Beep! move to either side of a doorway to a hall. At the other end of the hall there are three poppers and nothing else.

From cover I shoot the poppers, and all three go down. There are no more visible ENGAGEABLE targets in that hallway.

The quesiton is, as I move down the now completly target free hallway, CAN I RELOAD?

So far folks have consistently said "NO.".

And the real answer is, it depends on the SO, the club, the club's MD, time of month, the EXACT stage, and how much your STI ESP gun pisses someone off.

I don't think steel vs. paper is germane in this case. The answer "should" be NO, BUT! Try this T-shirt on --

You come to the doorway to a hall. Using cover, you shoot the poppers/targets, which are in the hallway. You proceed to the end of the hall, where again you peek around and engage some other targets...from...well, cover. So if the hallway is cover you can use to engage another array, why isn't it cover you can use in which to reload?

[persona non grata]

kdmoore on the first page of this here thread writes:

Why is the first position considered cover. Couldn't someone come in from behind you? I'd actually think that walking into a freshly "cleared" area to be slightly safer than staying put at the last place that you made a lot of noise, and that threats could be seeking to ambush.

Hyputetically speakink, if I's walk into a situation where after the first 2, 3 or 11 shots fired from my gun hasn't gotten the bad guys to bug out by any means possible, like jumping out a 3rd floor or higher window, I've got a way bigger problem on my hands than I originally thought and should have brought the crew served weapon instead of my sidearm.

Yeah, if they're still hanging around after my first several shots and wanting to ambush me, then those guys need to get signed up for Delta Force, GSG9, the SAS, or some PMC outfit like Black Water.

Never leave cover w/o a topped off gun.

Never cross an opening non-cover area w/ an empty gun.

Include in the hard copy CoF description that catch all of "all reloads must begin and end behind cover". That's I heard they did at this last Badlands match. Then the SO verbalizes that failure to do so will get ya a procedural.

Lastly, set the CoF up so that such range lawyering/quibbling/gamer-ness gets the ki-bash rite from the get go.

[Steve J]

Include in the hard copy CoF description that catch all of "all reloads must begin and end behind cover". That's I heard they did at this last Badlands match. Then the SO verbalizes that failure to do so will get ya a procedural.

Lastly, set the CoF up so that such range lawyering/quibbling/gamer-ness gets the ki-bash rite from the get go.

+1 I always do in my COFs even though it's already clear in the rulebook.

Where we get into problems is letting go unchecked situations where 1) the rulebook is interpretted from the point of view of wanting to shoot freestyle, and 2) from the point of view of wanting everything to be tactically correct. IDPA rules are what they are, but they're neither freestyle nor tactially correct. They're just the rules we use for the game at hand.

Edited July 12, 2007 by Steve J

[Jim Taylor]

here is the scenario, so everyone is clear what I am asking;

Beep! move to either side of a doorway to a hall. At the other end of the hall there are three poppers and nothing else.

From cover I shoot the poppers, and all three go down. There are no more visible ENGAGEABLE targets in that hallway.

The quesiton is, as I move down the now completly target free hallway, CAN I RELOAD?

So far folks have consistently said "NO.".

At the 2006 Virginia State IDPA Championships, we had a stage that began in the living room with your back to a target, fingers interlaced behind your head. On the start signal, you had to turn and engage the first target from retention with at least 2 rounds. Then you moved to a doorway where you had a long shot down a hallway and a fairly close shot to your right. We allowed reloads in the hallway, but if you chose to reload, you could not re-engage that target. If that target was not neutralized, you paid the price. At the end of the hallway and to your right was another target which had to be engaged from cover at the intersection of the hallways. Finally, a step or two put you in the bedroom where 2 shoot targets with 1 no-shoot target had to be engaged in tactical order.

So 12 shots, 6 targets, 2 hallways, 2 rooms.

I shot it like this. 2 on first target from retention, TRL giving me 11 in the gun with 10 shots left. I drew mag and gun at same time. Rest of stage was 4 shots from the doorway, sprint to corner, 2 shots, step to door, and 4 more shots, finishing with one round left in the gun.

Some shot it this way. 2 on first target from retention, 2 targets in tactical order from the doorway, RWR while moving down the hall. The final 3 targets in tactical order from cover at end of hall, and from cover at the doorway to the bedroom.

Some of the CDP types shot to slidelock at the doorway by dumping rounds on the long and short target and reloaded from slide lock going down the hall.

A few SSPers and ESPers tried round dumping to get to slidelock, but this gained them nothing (maybe even costing them time to dump those rounds).

Revolvers shot 6 by the doorway, and reloaded going down the hall.

Since we could not re-engage targets shot from a cover position, we paid the price of a procedural if we did, and a FTN if we were sloppy and didn't neutalize the target.

It was challenging to all levels of shooters, and easy to SO as we had three well defined cover positions.

In fact, on this stage there was no position where you could not see a target from the start signal to the last shot. It was fun and definitely challenging.

Best regards,

Jim Taylor

[Duane Thomas]

People talk about the difference between the rules and "the real world", but when you're shooting a match, the rules are the real world!

I love that.

[Bones]

here is the scenario, so everyone is clear what I am asking;

Beep! move to either side of a doorway to a hall. At the other end of the hall there are three poppers and nothing else.

From cover I shoot the poppers, and all three go down. There are no more visible ENGAGEABLE targets in that hallway.

The quesiton is, as I move down the now completly target free hallway, CAN I RELOAD?

So far folks have consistently said "NO.".

dirtypool40,

The source of your confusion is very common.

That is - that answer to your question has nothing to do with threats of any type, number, height or condition, as you imply it does in your prefacing explanation.

It has everything to do with leaving cover or moving from one point of cover to another while reloading. Reviewing the first paragraph on page 44 of the rulebook should clear up things up for you.

The answer to your question is "NO".

Best Regards,

Craig

[SMSI]

I see the application of the "no reload" rule when moving from one point of cover to another, where there is a "no cover" zone in between. I do not see how moving from one point behind cover to another point behind the same cover precludes a reload. Is this addressed in the IDPA rules? I guess the issue is: Can you reload while moving as long as you are continually behind the same cover?

[boo radley]

Craig -- all joking aside, I'm starting to think this question *does* have to do with threats.

Here's why: the entire concept of 'cover' is threat related. If you don't consider a threat 'neutralized' how can one ever slice the pie and engage other threats?

In other words, suppose you're behind a barricade with three targets on the other side. Using cover, you engage T1, now, you lean out a little more. Are you still using cover? YES! Are you exposed to T1? Yes, but it doesn't matter because you've engaged it.

Below is a made-up stage diagram. IMO, a door way, and hall. IMO, after engaging the targets from A1, the shooter should be able to use any legal reload on the way, before, or at A2, no?

[kruger]

That is - that answer to your question has nothing to do with threats of any type, number, height or condition, as you imply it does in your prefacing explanation.

It has everything to do with leaving cover or moving from one point of cover to another while reloading. Reviewing the first paragraph on page 44 of the rulebook should clear up things up for you.

I'm sorry, but I'm a bit confused. While proceeding down the hallway, what is he taking cover from?

All the threats he can see have been engaged. Is he taking cover from threats that may appear? If so, how do we know where they potential targets may appear?

To add to the confusion, a second set of scenarios.

You are downtown and paying for your street-side parking at a smartmeter (http://www.portlandonline.com/transportation/index.cfm?c=34791&a=60318) and the meter is the only cover available on this side of the street (your car is several spots away) when a gunfight breaks out on the far side of the street. In the confusion they start shooting at you. You engage targets 1-3 from the right side of the smartmeter with 3 rounds each and target 4 from the left side with 3 rounds.

I don't think anyone would have a problem with us reloading behind the smartmeter.

Now, replace the smartmeter terminal with a 6 foot long CMU wall that is part of a bus stop shelter you are walking by. Does the full length of the wall count as cover, or just the 2 feet we are standing behind when we engage targets 1-3?

[dirtypool40]

Craig -- all joking aside, I'm starting to think this question *does* have to do with threats.

Here's why: the entire concept of 'cover' is threat related. If you don't consider a threat 'neutralized' how can one ever slice the pie and engage other threats?

In other words, suppose you're behind a barricade with three targets on the other side. Using cover, you engage T1, now, you lean out a little more. Are you still using cover? YES! Are you exposed to T1? Yes, but it doesn't matter because you've engaged it.

Boo, that's it in a nut shell.

At the FL State match a few months back it was very stage specific; can reload once you've neutralized one this stage, but not on that one. Must stow mags first here, can stow mags on the run there. So long as I remember to ask the "mother may I" questions first I don't have any great heartburn, I'm just trying to find out if it's clearly spelled out in the rules.

Your example of pieing and exposing yourself to T1 after shooting T2 is a perfect example. That's why I used steel in my example. What's the threat? I have nothing left to shoot at even to stack rounds or make up -1's.

If you actually try to UNDERSTAND the rules, and apply them fairly it can make you dizzy. The itent or the letter.

Edited July 13, 2007 by dirtypool40

[RickB]

Craig -- all joking aside, I'm starting to think this question *does* have to do with threats.

Here's why: the entire concept of 'cover' is threat related. If you don't consider a threat 'neutralized' how can one ever slice the pie and engage other threats?

In other words, suppose you're behind a barricade with three targets on the other side. Using cover, you engage T1, now, you lean out a little more. Are you still using cover? YES! Are you exposed to T1? Yes, but it doesn't matter because you've engaged it.

Boo, that's it in a nut shell.

At the FL State match a few months back it was very stage specific; can reload once you've neutralized one this stage, but not on that one. Must stow mags first here, can stow mags on the run there. So long as I remember to ask the "mother may I" questions first I don't have any great heartburn, I'm just trying to find out if it's clearly spelled out in the rules.

Your example of pieing and exposing yourself to T1 after shooting T2 is a perfect example. That's why I used steel in my example. What's the threat? I have nothing left to shoot at even to stack rounds or make up -1's.

If you actually try to UNDERSTAND the rules, and apply them fairly it can make you dizzy. The itent or the letter.

OK, here's one for you; since neutralization is a scoring, and not engagement issue, if you have three poppers downrange - at the end of a hall with more threats visible when you get to the end - fire three shots from cover and knock down only two of the poppers, can you advance and reload because you have engaged all the steel, or do you have to knock them all down before you leave cover and reload? If the targets were paper, you could miss with every shot, and still advance without penalty, but if you shoot AT a steel target and miss, is it treated differently because it's obviously unhit? If you miss the second popper, can you continue pieing out to get the third one, or must you drop the middle one before transitioning to the last? There's nothing in the rule book that says engagement of steel is any different than for paper; if there are three poppers and you fire three shots, you've engaged them all, whether you hit them or not. Right?

[Sniper1Moore]

Page 43 1st paragraph states that a competitior may move behind cover while reloading.So if I were going down a hall or wall then I can reload while moving as a wall is cover.Too many people have the same for everyone mentality if that was the case we should all load only six rounds in the gun and our reloads and just shoot one big division that would include all revolvers and autos then tell them its the same for everyone.(my ass it is).If you have to use this excuse your stage sucks.Ken

[dirtypool40]

if there are three poppers and you fire three shots, you've engaged them all, whether you hit them or not. Right?

Yup, but I am talking about "neutralized threats" and relating it to the pie-ing into an area as you shoot, exposing yourself to "neutralized" targets. I'm not that experienced in IDPA, but it really seems like it's conflicting rulings, or applications covering the same thing.

"mox nix" let's just shoot.

Edited July 13, 2007 by dirtypool40

[tacted]

targets are not neutralized until they are scored ? ( my $.02)

[Sniper1Moore]

If the targets aren't neutralized until scored why are you allowed to advance past them during the course of fire? Come on guys it's a game.Ken

[Mike P]

If the targets aren't neutralized until scored why are you allowed to advance past them during the course of fire? Come on guys it's a game.Ken

Yes, it is a game and one of the many rules of the game is that reloads must be initiated and completed behind cover.

I guess it just ain't "freestyle baby" when the MD says the wall in the hall won't do for cover.

Mike

[Duane Thomas]

So long as I remember to ask the "mother may I" questions first I don't have any great heartburn, I'm just trying to find out if it's clearly spelled out in the rules.

I've come to the conclusion that one of the keys to excelling in IDPA is having the mental flexibility to gear your plan of attack on a stage to whatever happens to be that particular SO's interpretation of the rules. I know a lot of people hate that, and demand everything be written in stone. Personally, I view it as one of the things that makes IDPA such a fun challenge.

[freeidaho]

So long as I remember to ask the "mother may I" questions first I don't have any great heartburn, I'm just trying to find out if it's clearly spelled out in the rules.

I've come to the conclusion that one of the keys to excelling in IDPA is having the mental flexibility to gear your plan of attack on a stage to whatever happens to be that particular SO's interpretation of the rules. I know a lot of people hate that, and demand everything be written in stone. Personally, I view it as one of the things that makes IDPA such a fun challenge.

Duane,

Yes sir. I actually find it interesting that IDPA shooters get so wadded up in a ball about this. Other shooting sports require even more mental preperation to do well in their stages. Certainly USPSA and 3-Gun is more complicated if only because there are so many more targets, more movement, and sometimes more than one gun in a stage. IDPA is easy by comparison. I also read between the lines that you consider it an advantage for yourself that you can be flexible as needed.

As a benefit, it leads to better stages with different challenges.

Thanks for putting it so clearly. Yeah, I know it is your job to be literate, but I liked it anyway.

kr

Edited July 14, 2007 by freeidaho

[kdmoore]

Ok, having read the discussion to this point, I will agree that the rulebook is clear on when reloads are allowed. What you won't find is a definition of cover. And that is where 90 % of all the differences come from.

Go back to the hallway (seems the most clear cut of examples). P1 looks down the hallway at target array #1, and p2 is at the end of that hallway looking 90 degrees to oneside or the other where target array #2 is found.

School A (seems the majority in this thread): says that P1 is cover, and P2 is cover (both have material between shooter and known threat targets). The hallway in between is not cover (one possible reason is there are no known targets that it seperates you from until you get to p2?)

School B sees P1 as the ONLY cover until target array #1 is engaged, at that time P1, the hallway, and the corner at p2 all become available cover, thus allowing a reload between P1 and P2.

I guess the question we end up asking the SO at the beginning of the stage, is what is considered cover, and when (i.e. hallway isn't cover until array#1 is engaged).

As for the "RW" example of being in the middle of a room with 4 doors ... I'd argue there isn't any cover in that room at all. Standing next to any of the walls you are still exposed on three sides, tho I'd rather be there than in the middle, I'm still not behind cover.

As for the steel question. I've been to many IDPA matches where you pie a barricade and you are allowed to shoot them in order, then go back to make up misses. I've also been to matches that specified that steel must fall before you can move into the open ....

Obviously, the only thing we really do agree on asking the SO.

On a side note, while it can be frustrating that no universal rule is found, it's been refreshing to have the civil tone thru out this thread.

[SMSI]

Having established that one can move and re-load behind cover, I agree the issue is what is cover. IMHO (which really is humble as far as IDPA goes), a visual barrier is cover, unless the stage description says it is not. Leaving it up to the SO is not fair to anyone, including SOs, since few if any SOs can really be expected to know all the rules of IDPA, at least at local matches.

Likewise, it seems that a miss is a miss and a failure to neutralize is a failure to neutralize, steel or paper, whether one moves/reloads in front of the target thereafter or not. Unless the stage description says otherwise, of course, in which event a procedural would be added to the other penalties.

Again, this is just what makes sense to me, unless there is something specific to the contrary in the rules.

[RobMoore]

Some of the CDP types shot to slidelock at the doorway by dumping rounds on the long and short target and reloaded from slide lock going down the hall.

A few SSPers and ESPers tried round dumping to get to slidelock, but this gained them nothing (maybe even costing them time to dump those rounds).

Intentional Round Dumping: a common practice I see, but doesn't the rule book give this as an example of what should be a FTDR penalty?

My take on RWR while moving is that if you have a piece of cover between you and the targets you have left to shoot, you are behind cover.

Edited July 16, 2007 by RobMoore

[Duane Thomas]

I also read between the lines that you consider it an advantage for yourself that you can be flexible as needed.

Thanks for putting it so clearly. Yeah, I know it is your job to be literate, but I liked it anyway.

Thank you for the nice compliment.