Grip safety

[kimmie]

This is my 3rd year shooting IPSC and I'm loving it. I recently bought a new S&W DK 1911, which is a great but I'm having a problem disengaging the grip safety consistently because of my grip (I ride the safety). Question - is it illegal in IPSC to disconnect the grip safety or tape it down? If so, I guess I need to invest in a grip safety with a palm swell. Also, I use factory ammo since I don't reload and hate to impose on my reloading friends to make me 200plus rounds of ammo for a match. I've shot magtech for years and recently independence. They both are HOT. Anyone know of any factory ammo that is still at least 165 power factor but not quite so hot? Thanks for your help.

Kimmie

[G-ManBart]

This is my 3rd year shooting IPSC and I'm loving it. I recently bought a new S&W DK 1911, which is a great but I'm having a problem disengaging the grip safety consistently because of my grip (I ride the safety). Question - is it illegal in IPSC to disconnect the grip safety or tape it down? If so, I guess I need to invest in a grip safety with a palm swell. Also, I use factory ammo since I don't reload and hate to impose on my reloading friends to make me 200plus rounds of ammo for a match. I've shot magtech for years and recently independence. They both are HOT. Anyone know of any factory ammo that is still at least 165 power factor but not quite so hot? Thanks for your help.

Kimmie

Hey Kimmie,

Welcome! You can tape down or disable the grip safety on your 1911 without any problems. Many people pin them or deactivate them totally, but quite a few people will sensitize them by filing a little bit at a time until they get to where it takes just a tiny bit of movement to disengage. If you plan on shooting any IDPA matches you'll want to keep it active to conform to those rules, but sensitized is okay there too since it still functions as intended. And yes, the grip safeties with the pad or bump work better, but they aren't a complete solution for everyone (I'm in that group).

What caliber is your gun? .40 or 45? If it's in .40 you could buy ammo from Atlanta Arms and Ammo or Precision Delta that is intended for USPSA shooting and won't be overly hot. I'm not sure about their .45 ammo.

[GentlemanJim]

I have to disable all of mine even the swell type wont work for me.

its legel.

Welcome to the forum

Jim

[MasterLefty]

I have to disable all of mine even the swell type wont work for me.

All of my STI's are pinned, too many year of running a Tanfoglio, . I don't even come close to deactivating the grip safety.

Kenny

[kimmie]

This is my 3rd year shooting IPSC and I'm loving it. I recently bought a new S&W DK 1911, which is a great but I'm having a problem disengaging the grip safety consistently because of my grip (I ride the safety). Question - is it illegal in IPSC to disconnect the grip safety or tape it down? If so, I guess I need to invest in a grip safety with a palm swell. Also, I use factory ammo since I don't reload and hate to impose on my reloading friends to make me 200plus rounds of ammo for a match. I've shot magtech for years and recently independence. They both are HOT. Anyone know of any factory ammo that is still at least 165 power factor but not quite so hot? Thanks for your help.

Kimmie

Hey Kimmie,

Welcome! You can tape down or disable the grip safety on your 1911 without any problems. Many people pin them or deactivate them totally, but quite a few people will sensitize them by filing a little bit at a time until they get to where it takes just a tiny bit of movement to disengage. If you plan on shooting any IDPA matches you'll want to keep it active to conform to those rules, but sensitized is okay there too since it still functions as intended. And yes, the grip safeties with the pad or bump work better, but they aren't a complete solution for everyone (I'm in that group).

What caliber is your gun? .40 or 45? If it's in .40 you could buy ammo from Atlanta Arms and Ammo or Precision Delta that is intended for USPSA shooting and won't be overly hot. I'm not sure about their .45 ammo.

Thanks for the welcome!!!!! And thank you everyone for your responses. It helps to know I'm not alone!!!!! Until I can get to my clubs resident gunsmith - I'll just tape the safety. Just didn't want to get kicked off a match!!!!!! So many rules, so little time (sm)!

My gun is a .45. The problem with buying ammo that needs to be shipped to me is.... I'm embarrased to say it........ I live in Massachusetts . But please don't hold that against me. How about PMC vs. Federal vs. Wolff vs. winchester and so on.......? Any big difference in how hot they are compared to one another?????????

[GentlemanJim]

I dont know about wolf, but win fed and pmc are all good stuff

Its pretty spendy to buy 45 you will want to save your brass and start reloading

All the folks on the forum can help with info to get you started.

Jim

[Dan Sierpina]

Kimmie,

Which clubs are you shooting at? I too live in the People's Republik. Winchester white box makes major with no problem. A short ride to our neighbor to the north will provide you with ammo.

As for the grip safety, just tape it. Remove the grips, and a piece of electrical tape will allow the gun to fire. Put the grips back on, and they'll hold the tape just fine. You might have to replace the tape once a year.

[kimmie]

Hi Dan - I belong to BGRA and Braintree and shoot the Area7 circuit. Just did Harvard this weekend. Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeee don't look up my scores - not my finest moment!!!!!!!!!

Winchester white box - 230grain???? Or the target one? Those are really expensive!!!!

Thanks for the suggestions. Tape is cheap and easy. That's what I'll do!!!!!!

[Dan Sierpina]

The 230 grain round nose. Take a drive up to N.H. Walmart carries it in 100 round value packs.

Harvard does have good matches. You might want to try Manville this coming Sunday.

[Supermoto]

Kimmie,

when I started shooting USPSA last year, I used CCI blazer ammo, it worked well.

It was alittle less than Winchester white box.

I had the grip saftey worked on, on my L-10 gun so that its takes very little movement to work, Open gun the grip safety is pinned

Harvard has great matches and they have a practice every wed night from 5-7pm that is open to the public, feel free to stop by.

I maybe starting a IPSC practice in Brockton/ Easton area soon. I'll let you know when it starts

[kimmie]

Thank you both for the replies!!!!!!! I keep saying shooters are the nicest people in the world!!!!!!!

I'm going to tape my safety - and when I see the gunsmith at BGRA, I'll have him totally disconnect it. Just didn't want to do something that was against IPSC rules.

I'm going to 4seasons on Friday and I'll buy a box each of the ammos suggested and see which one feels the lightest to me. Thanks for the suggestions!

I've been to a couple of Harvard practices and actually did their Hired Gun training course a couple of weeks ago. It was well worth it!!!!!!! Had Scott Bothelo as an instructor and boy did I learn a lot! Harvard matches are awsome - 6 stages this Sunday, one shot totally prone and lots of steel and long distance! Can't make Manville this Sunday unfortunately. They have good matches too.

I'd be really interested in IPSC practice sessions. What range in Brockton? I work nites except for friday and weekends so that's why I don't go out to Harvard to practice. Please keep me posted.

Kimmie (Donna)

[Hamar]

Mike, would you like or do you need another to help you if you do run an IPSC practice? I'm sure I could help you out. Contact me and let me know.

Hal

[Supermoto]

I'd be really interested in IPSC practice sessions. What range in Brockton? I work nites except for friday and weekends so that's why I don't go out to Harvard to practice. Please keep me posted.

Kimmie (Donna)

Donna, The practice will be more than likely on Thursday nights at Ames in North Easton

Mike, would you like or do you need another to help you if you do run an IPSC practice? I'm sure I could help you out. Contact me and let me know.

Hal

Hal, any help would be great. I'll keep you updated, I have to make a presentation to the range tonight and hopefully will start this Thursday night. The practice will be small courses, maybe classifiers and the like to start, if things go well, they may open the purse strings for swingers and a Star

Edited May 14, 2007 by Supermoto

[Hamar]

Awesome. Keep me up to date and if you want my help and years of experience, I'd be more than happy to help you out.

[CSEMARTIN]

You can tape down or disable the grip safety on your 1911 without any problems.

What happens if you drop a loaded gun? I wasn't aware that it was legal in USPSA to disengage a safety feature on a handgun.

[G-ManBart]

You can tape down or disable the grip safety on your 1911 without any problems.

What happens if you drop a loaded gun? I wasn't aware that it was legal in USPSA to disengage a safety feature on a handgun.

Well, if you drop a loaded gun you're going to be DQ'd, but I'm not sure how that applies to a grip safety. A grip safety isn't going to make any difference on a dropped gun unless it's one of the ones that also activates a firing pin safety (which you can also disable/remove). The rules don't specifically prohibit disabling the grip safety and if it isn't specifically prohibited, it's allowed (Production has a slightly different take on that, but you can't shoot a single action auto there anyway). In a similar fashion, if you have a 1911 with the firing pin safety, you can remove it and be within the rules as well.

Edited May 15, 2007 by G-ManBart

[CSEMARTIN]

Well, if you drop a loaded gun you're going to be DQ'd, but I'm not sure how that applies to a grip safety.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the grip safety keeps the TRIGGER in a stationary position.

I am not an expert on dropping loaded guns, but there is a local shooter here in Michigan that dropped a loaded gun recently. It went off twice- once down range and once UP RANGE. Yeah!! The gun sent a bullet towards the peanut gallery behind the firing line.

I'll bet money his grip safety was disabled. I couldn't care less about the DQ. I think a lot of you are missing the point. Legal or not, disabling a safety feature on a handgun is a bad idea. You guys need to think for yourselves. Quoting rules in a rulebook doesn't make it safe just because some group of people at the USPSA said so.

[G-ManBart]

Well, if you drop a loaded gun you're going to be DQ'd, but I'm not sure how that applies to a grip safety.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the grip safety keeps the TRIGGER in a stationary position.

I am not an expert on dropping loaded guns, but there is a local shooter here in Michigan that dropped a loaded gun recently. It went off twice- once down range and once UP RANGE. Yeah!! The gun sent a bullet towards the peanut gallery behind the firing line.

I'll bet money his grip safety was disabled. I couldn't care less about the DQ. I think a lot of you are missing the point. Legal or not, disabling a safety feature on a handgun is a bad idea. You guys need to think for yourselves. Quoting rules in a rulebook doesn't make it safe just because some group of people at the USPSA said so.

This is a bit of thread drift since the original poster just asked if it was legal or not. With that said, I'm guessing a lot of new shooters who might read this would find the background relevant so, I'll reply this time only and leave it at that....everyone can make their own decision based on the rules at hand.

If you're not sure of what caused your fellow shooter's gun to go off when dropped, I'm unclear how anyone can form any opinion based on that event. Maybe it had a really heavy steel trigger and a bad trigger job that wasn't safe in the first place? Could have been a number of things, but blaming one part over another without evidence doesn't seem overly definitive to me. Also, the gun went off twice...sounds like it had bigger issues than any grip safety mods since the first round firing isn't going to make it bounce a couple of feet in the air and land in just the right place a second time.

A dropped 1911 with an active grip safety and an engaged thumb safety can theoretically go off if it's dropped just right....takes a hard and perfectly placed drop though. A firing pin safety can prevent that, or a light firing pin with a matching spring can do the same (Springfield's approach). Nobody mandates firing pin safeties and the design was around for 75 years or so before anyone thought to add one.

John M. Browning didn't want to put a grip safety on the 1911 when he designed it so he didn't in the first versions. In fact, nearly 25 years later, he didn't put one on the Hi-Power when he designed that gun because he felt they were unecessary. When the trials were done by the Army the Cavalry balked at a semi-auto and requested the addition of the grip safety to make it more to their liking. At the time the Cavalry had a huge influence in the Army....and that's how the 1911 got it's grip safety. The genius gun designer didn't think it was necessary and the Cavalry did....who probably knew more about guns?

If Browning thought that grip safeties were unecessary, and if USPSA (which is extremely concerned about safety, as in the number one concern) doesn't think disabling them is a safety concern, then I don't think it's a problem. People have been disabling grip safeties for decades in USPSA and I have never heard of a dropped gun going off because of it. Add up all those shooters over all those years and if it was a problem, we'd have known about it a long time ago. Now back to our regularly scheduled program

[CSEMARTIN]

My concern is someone with a sub 2# trigger and a disabled grip safety. Am I the only one here that thinks this is dangerous (if the gun is dropped)?

Edited to be less confrontational.

Edited May 15, 2007 by CSEMARTIN

[ima45dv8]

Thank you for that demonstration of self-restraint, Christopher.

It's a good discussion with much to be learned (like so many on this forum!).

As to your question, I have to say I honestly don't know at this point. I've read many well-reasoned arguments over the years about just what a grip safety does or does not provide in terms of AD-prevention during an impact, some pro and some con. I *do* think a dropped gun with every safety ever devised in working order would still be potentially dangerous since we know mechanical devices can and do fail. My guns get pretty badly abused, but I'm not ready to test the various theories presented.

I'm going to keep an open mind on this issue while the (non-emotional) discussion continues. No doubt, I'll learn something, as I usually do around here.

[wide45]

If a gun without a grip safety is dropped, and the trigger somehow bounces the sear out of engagement, the hammer will stop on the half cock.

Grip safety adds some redundancy, but the gun is not unsafe without it.

[kimmie]

Wow - look at what I've started!!! But actually, I'm learning a lot. That said - I'm a 'why' kinda person and like to have actual facts to be able to make a decision. Maybe a brief lesson in how the safeties on a 1911 actually function would help me to make a better decision on whether or not I disconnect my grip safety. I once viewed a cut-a-way of a functioning Glock and now feel very comfortable knowing it won't/can't just 'go off'. But, when I started this post, I really didn't consider disconnecting the grip safety to be unsafe for several reasons. My thought was that the grip and thumb safety do 2 different things in 2 different ways, independent of one another. And also, the fact that not all semi-auto's have grip safeties. And not all guns have thumb safeties either, and not all guns have decockers, and not all guns have firing pin safeties. Is one less safe than the other? I believe a grip safety may make a gun safer, but not having one doesn't make it less safe. A lot of safeties are redundent (as was pointed out) and came about because of the government and also a fear of law suits by manufacturers, which the background info from g-man highlights. And from my limited knowlege about the mechanics of firing, it seems to me that 2 AD's from a gun hitting the ground kinda point to a faulty sear or a bad trigger job or someother internal malfunction.

Kimmie (Donna)

[CSEMARTIN]

If a gun without a grip safety is dropped, and the trigger somehow bounces the sear out of engagement, the hammer will stop on the half cock.

My concern is that the sear could be bounced past the half cock notch. I have seen this happen during a slam fire.

I realize that there are several variables which could explain why a dropped gun can go bang. I just want to know if having a fully functional grip safety will make that less likely.

[kimmie]

I'd like to know the answer to that also - anyone have a technical explanation/link as to how the grip safety really functions?

Donna

[ima45dv8]

I don't have a link to a reference, but I can tell you that the grip safety does one thing -- it blocks rearward movement of the trigger until the grip safety is pressed far enough for the nose of the GS to lift (pivot up, actually) out of the way of the back of the trigger bow.

In a 1911 type pistol with all the safeties functioning properly (and that seems to be the crux of the discussion. . . . .whether all are functioning properly during the imagined drop test), and with the grip safety deactivated, the impact could cause the trigger to move within the frame allowing it to impact the sear. However, if the thumb safety is fitted properly to the sear, and is engaged, the sear should not move and would thus prevent the hammer from going forward. And, if it *did* move because of improper engagement with the sear, the design of the hooks would have them engage on the half-cock notch before ever falling far enough to strike the firing pin.

Whew!

This all assumes the various bits are fitted properly and are used as intended, and in no way means that all of the bad things can't go wrong at the same time in any given pistol at some point. As csemartin said, he's seen a dropped gun fire, and that's a sight I hope I never have to witness.

FWIW, the grip safeties are disabled on all of my 1911/2011 pistols, including my carry guns, and I haven't had an occasion to feel endangered a bit in almost 30 years with them. The thumb safeties are checked regularly to ensure their proper function.