What Is Wrong With Production?

[Vlad]

If the NROI makes a ruling that shooters must wear pink tutus in competition, than I'll order two from the local ballet shop, slap my Pharaoh logo on it, and get back to the shooting

[vluc]

If the NROI makes a ruling that shooters must wear pink tutus in competition, than I'll order two from the local ballet shop, slap my Pharaoh logo on it, and get back to the shooting

great, there's a visual that will stick with me for way too long.....

[Micah]

If the NROI makes a ruling that shooters must wear pink tutus in competition, than I'll order two from the local ballet shop, slap my Pharaoh logo on it, and get back to the shooting

[sslav]

So, basically through your "rewards" system you've bribed folks into a couple Divisions That is creative thinkin'

I was more thinking abou the A shooter who works hard and travels to your match and has no clue what the local "mix" is and performs well and gets nothing if your handing out stuff.

I've just seen too many folks stay a class or two below their performance level for too long for prizes and so I'm not keen on the classification system for prize distribution.

I may be completely off base, but is anyone really going to pick a division or tank classifiers on the basis of collecting a $10 check once or twice a month?

I do get a kick out of the reaction of relatively new shooters when handing over a check for their first class win. I seem to also remember that once upon a time we had a plaque option, instead of cash payback, but that pretty much died out due to lack of demand.....

Dang! I gues I can stop checking that option on the signup form. I was toying with framing the very first (and the only so far) check I got.

[Derwoodski]

If you create a "provisional" new Production Division, and turn the current Production into "Production-10", do you truly think you'll attract brand-new USPSA members? Or will you merely strip off a couple veterans here, and there, and create another anaemic Division? And what data suggests there's a demand for this change?

It might keep a few more people than we retain at present, but not enough to make much difference. It would serve to divide the existing division, but whose to say there aren't enough people interested in both to support both or, for that matter, that it would be Production 10 that survived. If we're willing to talk about eliminating Limited 10 in favor or a single Limited class, why aren't we equally prepared to see if the same may be appropriate for Production? Assault weapon ban issues aside, how many guns normally used in Production, have a 10 round maximum capacity? I don't ever remember seeing one.

As for what data suggests there is a demand for this change, those posting in this forum are a pretty clear indication of some interest. The question is not whether there is demand, but how much demand there is. As long as people jump all over anyone that suggests a higher capacity Production division, we'll never know.

I think USPSA should 1.) make sure current Divisions are healthy and enjoy wide-spread participation, and 2.) attract new members, and -- a distant 3rd -- create new Divisions only if it's not at the expense of "1."

Had USPSA not evolved to make Single Stack non competitive in any divison without creating a protected division for us, I probably would not have gotten involved in this in the first place. I was happy there until I found out my classifiers didn't count. The cat's out of the bag, now. I bought a gun to compete in Production and I'm liking it. Sorry about those that feel threatened by a desire to update, just like those that went before did. Life goes on.

I don't insist on a higher capacity Production division, but I favor the idea. It is others that are so adament that one should not exist. All I can say is that I'd shoot in a higher capacity Production division if it existed. That used to be a significant statement back when I shot only Single Stack. Now that I'm shooting Production too, it matters less, except, of course, now nobody can say I should have no say in a division I don't shoot.

I suspect a lot of others would shoot in a higher capacity division. It's even possible that the fears of those who like the 10 round limit might be realized. A higher capcity production division might draw so many people from a 10 round division that the more limited one became less significant, a place that truly was for the entry level shooter rather than a place where the very experienced shooter can compete against a higher proportion of new shooters than are found in any other division. Should that happen, where's the downside? It proves the demand, and accomodates it. If it doesn't happen, it proves the demand isn't there, and has no significant impact on the status quo. Where's the downside?

I had no intention of getting back into this discussion in depth. If there was a higher capacity Production division, I'd shoot in it. That would be my preference. If there never is such a division, I'll still shoot Production 10, at least until Single Stack becomes a reality. Then we'll see whether I still like Single Stack enough to drop back to an even more capacity limited division.

Hmmm, there's an idea. If we don't want to up the round limit for Production, how about we reduce it to 8 and open the division to 1911s and to Browning Hi Powers? Just kidding . . . sort of.

Lee

hmmmmmm data

uspsa member poll (those choosing to respond)from uspsa website

Question regarding lifting the 10 round limit in Production

Yes, remove the 10 rnd limit [ 17 ] [24.29%]

No, Keep the 10 rnd limit [ 44 ] [62.86%]

Yes, remove the 10 rnd limit, but I'd like to see another division with a 10 rnd limit - PD-10 (similar to having the Limited and Lim-10 division) [ 9 ] [12.86%]

[sslav]

As for what data suggests there is a demand for this change, those posting in this forum are a pretty clear indication of some interest. The question is not whether there is demand, but how much demand there is. As long as people jump all over anyone that suggests a higher capacity Production division, we'll never know.

I think if we accept forum participants as a valid sample of attitudes of USPSA shooters in general then the following polls/discussions should be taken into account.

http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=649

http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=646

http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=665

Is this horse not sufficiently dead yet?

[Derwoodski]

As for what data suggests there is a demand for this change, those posting in this forum are a pretty clear indication of some interest. The question is not whether there is demand, but how much demand there is. As long as people jump all over anyone that suggests a higher capacity Production division, we'll never know.

I think if we accept forum participants as a valid sample of attitudes of USPSA shooters in general then the following polls/discussions should be taken into account.

http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=649

http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=646

http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=665

Is this horse not sufficiently dead yet?

+1 cant we all just shoot?

[Ben Stoeger]

and not stick to our founding purpose like the 10 round crap or we end up like a bunch of soccer moms where we all get a trophy because we each have our own division....then why bother even keeping score.

You think we will slide down the slippery slope from having a "level playing field" entry level division to no longer keeping score?

Did I miss a memo?

[GeorgeInNePa]

Well that certainly was a helpful post Chris. Very informative too.

Meh, you don't have to travel with him. Think of those of us that do...

Can we look at L-10 and Production in a different light from Limited and Open and Full Cap Production for a moment?

Yes, USPSA shooting is a platform to advance what works. 100% agree with this. Productionand L-10 are more skills dependent and less equipment dependent than say Limited and Open or full cap Production. We are fullfilling our charge with these restricted capacity divisons. How? By the skills developement required to compete in thise divisions.

try this on for size, Take a reasonable level Limited shooter and stick him into Production. and take a reasonable level Produciton shooter and stick him into Limted. Both get the proper equipment for the division. See who performs closer to their level in the new division. I think and of course I could be wrong, that we will find our L-10/Production shooter shooting a cleaner match at a higher level of performance than the Limited shooter. Why? I think that the basic skills are better reinforced in L-10 and Productino than in Open and Limited.

My opinion, others are free of course to disagree.

Jim

Sorry, Jim, I disagree. I believe if you're good with one, you're good with all. Your point might be valid for the first match, when the Limited shooter has to get used to doing a reload every 2 or 3 seconds, but after that, if both shooters are at the same level, it would be just as it was before the switch.

You can't win Limited shooting D's, I would say a good Limited shooter knows how to shoot A's.

[Jim Norman]

George, my point is that for the first match, the skill set would be there and I think better developed in the "Regular" shooter in L1- or Prod than in the "regualr shooter in Limited or Open.

I will agree 100% that Todd vs Robbie Vs Dave S might not make squat of a difference. I was thinking more of people at the Good C level.

Should have been clearer on that I suppose.

Jim

[Micah]

Do most competitors that shoot limited (which usually has the strongest showing) just dislike being restricted to double action guns?

why do you think production isnt more popular? Is it like that in your area?

C

From the original question, we have covered ALL topics ranging from the "bastardization" (sic) of ten round mags, the BOD, sandbaggers, and soccer moms.

That about covers it, and then some.