Who Can Issue A Dq?

[Fireant]

This question came up last weekend. Shooter was facing up range for a turning draw and blocked the view or the RO. He drew then turned. The RO and scorekeeper were out of position as can happen sometimes. Can the crowd that just got swept with a loaded gun stop things. I know I have been positioned wrong before and not see a 180 violation. Then the crowd harps and complains to me after the fact. If it's a safety violation and the RO does not see it are we allowed to yell stop? I would think that since safetly is always first that the answer is yes and the we are also obligated to do this not just be allowed to. I've searched the forums and the rule book, but could not find anything.

[Vlad]

I think the official answer is that if the RO didn't see it, it didn't happen. In reality, I'll be screaming my lungs out if you point a gun the wrong way and you can feel free to ding me with a procedural or dq (8.6.2, 10.6) so I know that I really dont want to shoot there anymore

On the other hand, the rule book doesnt really say who DQ's you. I guess you DQ yourself. The only mention of the RO is that he has to record the reasons or stop you.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Vlad

[AZ38super]

I could be wrong here but the only ones with control at that point are the RO and Scorekeeper.

The RO is supposed to be watching the shooter and be positioned accordingly.

The scorekeeper backs up the RO and watches the remainder of range and targets.

The crowd is only watching but moans, groans and gasps are likely to happen but they cannot take control of the stage and stop a shooter. Although I know of cases of a squib where the crowd has yelled loud enough to stop a shooter.

[L9X25]

While I know that there are numerous instances where it is difficult/impossible for the RO to maintain constant visual contact with the shooter’s gun, I am having difficulty visualizing how he could not be in a position to see it for the start of a stage.

IMHO, allowing the “peanut galley” to call penalties and DQ’s is a very slippery slope. I believe that only the RO or scorekeeper can issue a penalty or DQ. Unless the 180 violation was so flagrant that you were actually swept with the gun you should leave the yelling to the RO.

[John Baier]

People dq themselves by their unsafe actions. usually The RO is there to point it out. Anyone can yell stop when safety is the issue. Take for instance a squib. I wold rather stop the shooter than take the chance of them getting hurt. If this shooter realized what he or she did, they should have dq'ed themselves right on the spot regardless if the RO saw it or not.

"While I know that there are numerous instances where it is difficult/impossible for the RO to maintain constant visual contact with the shooter’s gun, I am having difficulty visualizing how he could not be in a position to see it for the start of a stage."

+1 I agree with L9X25 on this

Edited April 10, 2007 by John Baier

[Vlad]

Yes I know that only the RO can call out commands. But folks, lets be realistic. There are many possible scenario's under which the shooter AND the RO may not even notice a safety problem. Say, someone wondering over a berm. The rules be damned, don't let someone get shot because you aren't the one supposed to speak out.

I will however, add my voice to the list of those maintaining that this example is RO failure.

[L9X25]

Yes I know that only the RO can call out commands. But folks, lets be realistic. There are many possible scenario's under which the shooter AND the RO may not even notice a safety problem. Say, someone wondering over a berm. The rules be damned, don't let someone get shot because you aren't the one supposed to speak out.

Agreed 100%

But I do not think that the audience shouild get involved because they perceive that the shooter had just tilted their gun 92 degrees from the backstop. When somebody flagrantly breaks the 180 you will usually hear a chorus of yells along with the sound of others hitting the deck!

We recently had a situation where a shooter was running a field course and a single spectator yelled because he (alone) perceived that the shooter had approached or broken the 180. The shooter was momentarily distracted but continued his run once he realized that the RO was not the person yelling. He was offered a re-shoot but refused it because he was not in the state-of-mind to re-shoot.

Edited April 10, 2007 by L9X25

[Fireant]

This particular stage was not a USPSA stage, but it got us to wondering about how it would be handled there. This stage had a prop you had to manuver from the front to the back to engage targets(a mailbox) the RO was to the shooters right when he came around that side of the box. Both the RO and scorekeeper were blocked at that point. I have been RO'ing USPSA stages that have you move to the left then back to the right and get caught to the shooters right and not be able to tell if the muzzle broke the 180 or not. From my view it was close, from the on deck shooter they could tell me what caliber he was shooting and what color fiber optic rod he was using. What do you do then? I don't stop watching the gun to see what the mumbling is all about. OK it might be RO failure, but what/how do you make the call?

[racerba]

Say, someone wondering over a berm.

It depends on the situation. In this case, anyone can stop the shooter - for obvious safety reason.

[Flexmoney]

CHAPTER 7: Match Management

7.1 Match Officials

The duties and terms of reference of match officials are defined as follows:

7.1.1 Range Officer (“RO”) – issues range commands, oversees competitor

compliance with the written stage briefing and closely

monitors safe competitor action. He also declares the time, scores

and penalties achieved by each competitor and verifies that these

are correctly recorded on the competitor’s score sheet (under the

authority of a Chief Range Officer and Range Master).

7.1.2 Chief Range Officer (“CRO”) – is the primary authority over all

persons and activities in the courses of fire under his control, and

oversees the fair, correct and consistent application of these rules

(under the authority of the Range Master).

7.1.3 Stats Officer (“SO”) – collects, sorts, verifies, tabulates and

retains all score sheets and ultimately produces provisional and

final results. Any incomplete or inaccurate score sheets must be

promptly referred to the Range Master (under direct authority of

the Range Master).

7.1.4 Quartermaster (“QM”) – distributes, repairs and maintains all

range equipment (e.g. targets, patches, paint, props etc.), Range

Officer appliances (e.g. timers, batteries, staplers, staples, clipboards

etc.) and Range Officer rations (under direct authority of

the Range Master).

7.1.5 Range Master (“RM”) – has overall authority over all persons

and activities within the entire range, including range safety, the

operation of all courses of fire and the application of these rules.

All match disqualifications and appeals to arbitration must be

brought to his attention. The Range Master is usually appointed

by and works with the Match Director, however, in respect of

IPSC sanctioned Level IV or higher matches, the appointment of

the Range Master is subject to the prior written approval of the

IPSC Executive Council.

7.1.6 Match Director (“MD”) – handles overall match administration

including squadding, scheduling, range construction, the coordination

of all support staff and the provision of services. His

authority and decisions will prevail with regard to all matters

except in respect of matters in these rules which are the domain

of the Range Master. The Match Director is appointed by the host

organization and works with the Range Master.

0.0.7 Peanut Gallery (PG) Not applicable.

[Fireant]

OK Flex, but what are the duties of the other shooters? Are there any? What would you do if swept by a loaded gun and the RO's view was blocked and did not see it? Since they didn't see it, it didn't happen? Are you then not shaky afterward since it didn't happen? Just trying to sort things out here.

[L9X25]

I do not think that a RO can call something that he did not see, or see proof that the incident did occur, like a hole.

[davidball]

CHAPTER 7: Match Management

7.1.1 Range Officer (“RO”) – issues range commands, oversees competitor

compliance with the written stage briefing and closely

monitors safe competitor action. He also declares the time, scores

and penalties achieved by each competitor and verifies that these

are correctly recorded on the competitor’s score sheet (under the

authority of a Chief Range Officer and Range Master).

My opinion:

Only ROs can declare penalties.

Anyone can yell "STOP" for safety reasons (person on the berm, squib, etc.). If a shooter is stopped but has not violated a rule (person on the berm), he gets a re-shoot once a safe condition is re-established. If a person has violated a rule or a condition addressed in the rules has been achieved (squib), then it is up to the RO to invoke the consequences. If the RO did not see or detect the rules violation, there was no violation.

[Nemo]

The Match Officials overview offered by Flex should also include the duties and responsibilities of the Score Keeper. In 1997 I was certified as an IPSC Level I RO. Dino Evangelinos taught the class. If I recall correctly, he explained that the scorekeep should serve as a second pair of eyes to the RO, catching shooters actions that the RO may not see because he/she is paying attention to the competitors gun.

I am familiar with the case mentioned by L9X25, or one very similar. The right-handed shooter explodes from one position to another, running right to left on a field course. The RO runs behind but the competitor's gun is in a blind spot to the RO. In a case like this, one with an elevated risk factor of 180 violation, the RO should position his scorekeeper in an area, outside the COF, where he/she can monitor muzzle direction and advice the RO of any violation. The same as he/she was watching for footfaults at a charge line or fault line.

A setup like that could've also helped in Fireant's case.

Edited to add: Although not feasible all the time, the score keeper should also be a certified RO.

$0.02

Edited April 10, 2007 by Nemo

[Fireant]

In a perfect world yes, but we see it almost every weekend. The scorekeeper starts to score targets to help move things along. Then something happens and all they can say is I was looking at targets.

[Nemo]

I know, Ant. In that same perfect world at least for major matches the scorekeeps should be trained to the specifics of the stage where they'll work.

[Flexmoney]

The Match Officials overview offered by Flex should also include the duties and responsibilities of the Score Keeper. In 1997 I was certified as an IPSC Level I RO. Dino Evangelinos taught the class. If I recall correctly, he explained that the scorekeep should serve as a second pair of eyes to the RO, catching shooters actions that the RO may not see because he/she is paying attention to the competitors gun.

I don't even like saying "score keeper".

You have an RO on the timer and an RO on the clipboard.

They should be working as a team. Usually, one can be one the right side of the shooter and the other can be on the lelf side. That might need to move their rear ends to make sure they maintain those relative postions while the shooter navigates the cof.

In a perfect world yes, but we see it almost every weekend. The scorekeeper starts to score targets to help move things along. Then something happens and all they can say is I was looking at targets.

For one, they aren't doing their primary job...which is assisting in RO'ing the competitor.

Second, unless it has been predetermined that their is a scoring delegate to represent the shooter, then there shouldn't be any scoring going on until the shooter can inspect their targets as they are scored. (seldom, is there a delegate).

Third, a properly administered cof/match really shouldn't need to cut time by scoring behind the shooter.

Once again...the person on the clipboard is an RO first, scorekeeper second.

[Jaxshooter]

That is what you get when you shoot IDPA. Fireant you know better.

LOL

[Flexmoney]

OK Flex, but what are the duties of the other shooters? Are there any?

The other shooters have no official duties. That is clear in the rule book. They shouldn't be "helping" to score targets and such.

What would you do if swept by a loaded gun and the RO's view was blocked and did not see it?

I probably yell MUZZLE pretty loud and clear. And, in doing so, I'd be risking taking a procedural penalty for interferring with the shooter. So, I wouldn't yell out on a whim.

Then, I might later have a word with the RO's and MD about proper placement of the RO's, stage design, etc...with regards to safety and making sure we get it right the next time.

BTW...I'll add this. As a member of the peanut gallery, we still need to be paying attention to what is going on around us. It's easy enough for us all to get to talking and such (which might not be courteous to the shooter in the first place)...and we can take the game for granted. We really ought to be paying attention to to possible pitfalls...making sure we aren't in a likely place to get swept by an stray muzzle.

(that's my two cents...sorry for so long on wind.)

[Fireant]

That is what you get when you shoot IDPA. Fireant you know better.

LOL

I know, but I didn't have time that day to drive to South Carolina or Titusville for the match. I almost ended up being called nine-fingered Roger that day due to my own boneheadedness (if that's a word I'm guilty) and not the clubs.

[BBunin]

I don't even like saying "score keeper".

You have an RO on the timer and an RO on the clipboard.

They should be working as a team. Usually, one can be one the right side of the shooter and the other can be on the lelf side. That might need to move their rear ends to make sure they maintain those relative postions while the shooter navigates the cof.

Actually, Isn't the person with the clipboard technicaly referred to as the "ARO"?

As in, Assistant Range Officer.

[CSEMARTIN]

I shot at an IDPA match in Indiana a couple of years ago. A stage required you to start sitting in the car, engage some targets from the window, get out and move to the front of the car to finish the stage. One of the shooters swept the crowd with his gun. Several people in the crowd yelled muzzle. The SO allowed him to finish the stage. No DQ was issued.

Interestingly, I had video of the car stage. After the trip was over, I took my camera home and reviewed the tape. I was horrified to see another shooter sweep the crowd with his gun. Neither of the SO's or anyone in the crowd (including myself) noticed the shooter sweeping the crowd. How many times have you been swept? After watching this tape, I wonder.....

We need to pay attention to what is going on while others are shooting. Regardless of whether or not it's in the rulebook, if I see someone point a gun at me, they will here about it.

[Fireant]

Interestingly, I had video of the car stage. After the trip was over, I took my camera home and reviewed the tape. I was horrified to see another shooter sweep the crowd with his gun. Neither of the SO's or anyone in the crowd (including myself) noticed the shooter sweeping the crowd. How many times have you been swept? After watching this tape, I wonder.....

That's kind of what Jaxshooter meant about the club I sometimes shoot with. The same type of thing has happened there where they were not going to give a dq for sweeping the crowd. I went to the MD and told him that if that was the case, I was going home and would not come back to shoot. He ended up issuing a dq. Would that happen with USPSA rules? I really don't think so, but my reaction would be the same.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Fireant

[shootingchef]

I too have wondered about when to speak up or even speak when in the Peanut gallery. In IDPA anyone can stop the shooter if a safety issue is preceived. In USPSA, only the RO can make that call, or you risk a procedural. I would speak to the RO on that stage and make sure that the Range Master or Match Dir. was aware, the liabilitites are just to great to let sweeping slide. Just because the RO doesn't see it, doesn't mean it did not happen,I have only known one person to DQ themselves for sweeping.

Could this be a stage design issue?

[CSEMARTIN]

Could this be a stage design issue?

ABSOLUTELY YES!! I've thought about that day many times. The car was at an angle. You could engage the targets through the window. The 180 was tight. And in order to safely maneuver around to the front of the car, you had open the door, get out, raise your gun over the door, shut it and then move forward. It had everything to do with how the car was positioned in relation to the crowd and the targets.

Edited April 11, 2007 by CSEMARTIN