Production Legality Issue

[racerba]

And I agree with Carmoney, don't ask Amidon if you won't like the answer.

Whether you like the answer or not, it's good to know how the powers that be interprets the rules. After all, John has the final say whether we agree with him or not. Goes along with what Flex said - "why chance it?"

[Brazos SC Shooter]

Rather, its obviously the result of dry-firing. Instead, I would deem that: "a good start; keep up the good work!"

I say keep going until you have wittled the grip so far down it can no longer hold the magazine.

I am really curious to hear the "official party line" on this.

[AZ38super]

While I no longer own any Glocks and can't remember the specs between a stock 17 and 34 exactly I do know it is the same frame being used.

So with the G17 and G34 frames being identical, there are stuff like the extended mag release put on a stock 34 standard but the frame itself is the same so there is no problem as long as you match the other items to fit the rules.

This reminds me of a normal wear and tear or modification issue of last season where there was lots of speculation going on as well.

[lcs]

Micah,

Ask Mr Smoot at Miamisburg. Mike was a hair shy of going OPEN at a major match for the exact same problem on a G34. Mike was lucky, a well known and respected RM was there and testified it was from reload practice. Mike has a new G34 now!

Don't push the envelope. You want to shoot SC, better have another frame/gun. The same RM is not going to be there.

We can debate all day long about advantage/disadvantage versus normal wear and tear, but who's money, time, and good time is at stake?

BTW, I have a box stock G34 never been fired you can use, IF you promise not to paint it BLUE!

[Chris Keen]

Micah,

Ask Mr Smoot at Miamisburg. Mike was a hair shy of going OPEN at a major match for the exact same problem on a G34. Mike was lucky, a well known and respected RM was there and testified it was from reload practice. Mike has a new G34 now!

We were there Larry ...........

[Carmoney]

We actually got together here on this forum and re-wrote the equipment rules for USPSA Revolver Division (they're still proposed, but are expected to be approved by the BOD) to make sure this kind of silly-ass little nitpicky stuff didn't create problems for people.

Too bad the Production rules seem to be going the other direction.....

[GeorgeInNePa]

My opinion is you might as well get a new 34 for $100 more than a 17, now your have your practice gun and match gun.

However, if you were to use a 17 frame to "fix" your gun, I can see how it wouldn't be within the rules. Sucks, but that's how I read it. I bet you would be hard pressed to find someone that thinks you have an advantage by doing so...

How would it be not within the rules to use an OEM part to fix a worn gun?

You can add a G34 mag release to a G17, you can't use a G17 frame to fix a G34?

[Kevin Kline]

I think USPSA is getting a little ridiculous bumping shooters to open for normal wear and tear and b/c they dry fire the crap out of their guns. If it looks like its been heated or purposely bent out, then thats one thing, but if you can tell its been reloaded a million times, then let's not get crazy.

I mean how much are you actually gaining. Yeah I know how tight our sport is and the tenths of a second and all (I've been doing this 12 years, figured out the importance of time a long time ago), but unless the frame is an obvious advantage/modification, let's not go bananas.

So, some guys are getting into Production as the beginning level of IPSC, supposed to be cheaper and easier to get into than going STI or otherwise. Now, if you have a small amount of wear or tear, due to practice, we're going to make you buy a new gun or replace the frame after so much practice. STI's last for 100,000 + rounds. If this continues, you might be as well off just taking the plunge and blowing $1500 + on the gun, cause you're now going to have to buy a new Glock every year, depending on practice.

Let's use a little common sense. Again, just my opinion.

PB, let us know what Amidon says.

Thanks,

Edited April 10, 2007 by Kevin Kline

[glock_40_caliber]

How would it be not within the rules to use an OEM part to fix a worn gun?

You can add a G34 mag release to a G17, you can't use a G17 frame to fix a G34?

Exactly. And, since the frames are identical, why would it be unethical to do so?

Ruling from Amidon effective 3/8/05 states "This clause is not meant to prohibit exchanging external parts from one approved model handgun to another approved model handgun. Exchanging external parts from one approved model handgun to another approved model handgun from the same manufacturer is allowed, providing that the parts are original manufacturers parts and offered in their catalogs or on their handguns that otherwise meet division criteria."

[Glen]

Pharaoh .....

You have indicated in another thread that you

are going to to the World Shoot Qualifier.

Some of this match is going to be shot under

IPSC rules so I would think that you should get

a ruling from IPSC, not just USPSA, or fix your

gun prior to the match. This is reminiscent of the

Adam T incident at the last world shoot. You don't

need that grief and aggravation.

Of course none of this applies if you are not shooting

production.

Glen

[GeorgeInNePa]

Pharaoh .....

You have indicated in another thread that you

are going to to the World Shoot Qualifier.

Some of this match is going to be shot under

IPSC rules so I would think that you should get

a ruling from IPSC, not just USPSA, or fix your

gun prior to the match. This is reminiscent of the

Adam T incident at the last world shoot. You don't

need that grief and aggravation.

Of course none of this applies if you are not shooting

production.

Glen

Oh, I didn't see that. If that's the case, email Vince Pinto or post this on the IPSC Global Village board. I don't know if this would be allowed in IPSC. Maybe, maybe not.

[Matt Cheely]

Dosen't matter. The G34 isn't approved for IPSC.

[Chris Keen]

I think the *real* problem started when PB noticed the "normal wear & tear" himself, and decided to do something about it, thereby smoothing & "de-burring" the rough edges of his mag well. This ultimately changed the angle of the grip, which is now cause for concern. It almost does look heated and / or smoothed out. And because it is now a few millimeters shy of it's original shape, this begs the question of "How much is too much ?" or just how far can we let this go before we declare it *an advantage*.

Also I do not believe PB is going to the world-shoot qualifier. But if he was he would *have* to get himself a 17 since the 34's aren't legal in IPSC Production division.

Also, just for the record .... I once thought of this whole parts / frame swapping thing as putting a G17 frame on a G34 slide which in my mind seemed illegal in as much as the G34 didn't come from the factory that way, but once we got to talking about swapping parts around I see nothing wrong with putting the G34 slide on the G17 frame (vice versa) because to make a long story short, we seem to be simply swapping *parts* back and forth.

But yes this is one of those gray areas that needs some clarification, and this just might be the thread to clear all that up

[GeorgeInNePa]

Dosen't matter. The G34 isn't approved for IPSC.

[slaps self] D'OH! [/slaps self]

Duh! I forgot that part!

[Micah]

Keen is absolutely right. I made the error of smoothing out the dings, and ended up with a modified gun.

And World Qualifier? I really wanted to make that match, but chose to fund going to Nationals instead. The jury is still out on the official wording, howeve I believe that Mr. Amidon will provide an answer in the near future.

Although I agree that it is an almost arbitrary issue, I want to ALWAYS be compliant with the rules. I do not wish to take away someone's plaque because I was cheating, as opposed to me thrashing him/her on ability.

[Carmoney]

Keen is absolutely right. I made the error of smoothing out the dings, and ended up with a modified gun.

Ahhhhhh........and now we know.......the rest of the story.

Good day.

[pskys2]

If you had kept the "smoothing" to a minimum and not enlarged the well, I'd have said shoot it and be Proud.

It's not the $3000 gun that worries a seasoned competitor, it's the worn looking well kept one that looks like it had $1000 worth of primers stuffed thru it, quickly.

I've always thought the best pistols looked all beat up. But, I'm just an old dog with no new tricks.

I just got a G34 and hope mine will grow up and look like yours someday! I've been beating it up pretty hard trying to season it just right.

[kevin c]

I've asked this question before.

See the end of this thread for what I managed to dig up on J Amidon's views on the subject (granted it's now third hand, but it at least addresses the issue):

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...28565&hl=xd

[GeorgeInNePa]

Any updates from J.A.?