2007 March Bod Meeting In Dallas

[Gary Stevens]

Your Glock is legal in 2007 in Production. All this talk is about 2008.

Gary

[GeorgeInNePa]

I guess I'll be playing this year in Limited shooting minor. Hard to believe that my Glock will be perfectly legal in IDPA SSP, but won't be legal in Production.

Oh well, bring on the fun

These rules, if approved, won't take effect until 2008.

[txaggie]

Yes guys, I understand the rules are for 2008, but I guess I am already looking ahead and figure I'll beat the rush to Limited.

[Barrettone]

USPSA is "gamey" and that is just the way it is...period. Having a "production" division is simply not condusive to the USPSA "environment". I am not saying, that in theory, production is not a good thing, as it gets people out to play who cannot afford to shoot the more expensive divisions like open and limited.

There is something to be said for being able to go to WallyWorld, pick up some Whinny White Boxes and go drive your box-stock Glock at a local match. HOWEVER, our sport has always been about innovation and pushing the envelope. Eventually, that mindset creeps into the division, and voila...gaminess causes controversy.

It is a battle constantly being waged on both sides of the argument. Joe is pissed because he made the mods to his gun and now they are deemed illegal. Well, there is no good answer here. Somebody is going to be pissed off. It can either be the guy who made the mods, or the newbie who feels he can't compete because Joe has a better trigger, slidestop, mag release, sights, (fill-in-the-blank). So whats it gonna be?

I guess it comes down to what we want the sport to be (THE VISION). My personal thought is, if you want to tinker, we have a division for you, it is called Limited or Open. Newsflash...it's been there all along, and if you can put that kind of money into tupperware (read: trigger $300, sights $150, internal work ???), you can also do it to an S_I or similar for a few extra pennies.

So, IMO, suck it up, and go play with the big boys in the more expensive divisions, or shoot a "production" gun, not a modified one. Let me qualify everything I'm saying, though, by pointing out, that it is a shame that the ruleset didn't prohibit these mods from the onset, but I guess we are all human, and have to live and learn.

As someone who helps to run a local club, I *need* production division to bring in shooters at the grass roots level. Now, while I don't like the idea of having to measure trigger pulls, I can see how it will at least show the newbies that we want them on equal footing, so it is more about their shooting skill than their equipment. Unfortunately, there are things besides trigger pull that need to be addressed also...but I digress.

I understand Flex's concerns, but IMO, the benefits outweigh the costs. I rely HEAVILY on the B, C, D class shooter at our club, and anything I can do to keep them happy and coming back, I will vote for. They are a the BACKBONE of our sport. The numbers speak for themselves. Look at the classifications by state. The people I see complaining, are very vocal people who have been in Production for a while, and their skill level is fairly high. They are the minority IMHO. The majority is the shooters who are newer to our sport. They are our target audience. These people shoot mostly local matches, and provide the lions share of the activity credit to USPSA...NOT the people shooting majors with higher classifications.

PS Sorry for the long post, but this is a complicated topic that has to ben seen from more than one disgruntled perspective. YMMV

Edited March 7, 2007 by Barrettone

[JFD]

So do your shooters think they are screwed having to shoot against those with 2 lb triggers? Since trigger jobs are nothing new, are they just now fed up and about to leave USPSA because of this long standing issue? I'm asking only because I've never heard a newbie complain about it around here.

I don't shoot Production and never will, but I set up a G35 for my wife in Limited and know for a fact that a Glock only takes some polish and a couple of springs replaced to get a very good "no more excuses" trigger. Coupled with a trigger stop, I wasn't overly impressed by the differences between it and the RS trigger I installed. Costs less than $20.

If the BOD wants a stock division, then there's a heck of lot more issues that are obvious to newbies that could be addressed. Are we going to keep allowing slides machined for Bo-Mars? Replacement barrels still OK? Replacement guide rods OK? Replacement sights OK? Better get rid of grip tape because it costs more than a home-brew trigger job.

Is a bone stock division something we really want? My feeling is it wouldn't help at all, and would definitely piss off current shooters. Production is the "cheapo" division in USPSA already, yet USPSA hasn't made much of an effort to put the word out to educate prospective shooters who listen to those who say "you need a $3000 gun to shoot USPSA". IDPAers are terrible about spreading that false word around here.

I'm also wondering how much of a future anyone has in this sport if they can be scared off by someone else's trigger job. I shoot a Para or Glock in Limited and am positive that when I get beaten, it's the shooter's higher skill level that kicked my butt, not whatever gun he's shooting.

Check out the new USPSA video. Looks great, but every Open gun should be edited out because all we're doing is making a video available that confirms that you do indeed need a $3000 gun. Maybe the same could be said for Limited guns as well, unless all we show are Paras and Glocks. Newbies will see all the Open and Limited guns they ever wanted to see at their first match.

Good marketing with creative ideas would likely solve a lot of the problems that some folks think ought to be addressed with new rules. The members we have now should be treated with respect and appreciated, as I don't believe there's an ocean of newbies out there waiting to take their place if only we had a 3 lb trigger pull rule.

[LPatterson]

This post has degenerated to only being about the 3# pound trigger pull & I think it might be time to look at something else. The rest of the world has a 5# trigger pull & now we are complaining about a 3# pull. Has anyone considered that maybe the BOD has been trying to go through the back door to try to get our trigger pull accepted as a usable standard. The Glock 34-35 which are not legal IPSC guns, come with a 3.5# connector so an American 5# limit would mean having to undo a factory trigger job. If a 3# limit were imposed then these guns would be legal and all other DA guns could be brought down to this limit.

I shoot Production occasionally & I have a lightened trigger pull because it is easier going back & forth between the XD and the 1911, I originally used a Beretta 92 Vertec but I couldn't seem to transition between the DA/SA pull that had been lightened to half of the original pull weight.

This clammer is similar to that of the revolver rule change of 6 shots before a reload. All those people who bought 7-8 shot revolvers for the advantage were suddenly screwed but most of stayed & bought new equipment.

I have decided that if the BOD prevails with the 3# limit that I will pay to have my gun restored whether it be by the factory or by the gunsmith that lightened it if Springfield ever starts selling parts for the XD.

I will not base my USPSA vote on a single decision but all bets are off about the next Presidential ellection.

[shootingchef]

I could not disagree more with the last post. If we are not feeding the sport new shooters at a constant rate, we are losing shooters at a faster rate. One of the measures that I use to rate shooter satisfaction is to look at how many come back for a second or third match. We are blessed in the DFW area to have as many good shooters as we do, but we are not bringing in very many new members. I blame that on the intimidation factor. New shooters are not going to complain about trigger jobs, or anything at the first match. They are going to see and hear about production pistols that are not stock, as most are not. They already, after or during 1 match, feel that they cannot play because their equipment is not "up to speed." Hense the need for a true stock division, even if its a recognized feeder division. Don't put the new shooter at even more disadvantge than they already are.

[ihatepickles]

The "newbies need affordable gear" argument is a red herring. Newbies that don't return to shoot more matches have gotten their egos bruised by coming in dead-last. We can't fix that by changing rules, we need newbies that aren't delicate snowflakes.

My personal experience is that newbies that balk at equipment are griping about buying 3 more magazines and a holster. How in the world are we as a sport suppose to cater to this type of newbie? Back to the not-so-delicate snowflake request.

If they're griping about $150 in holsters and mags, are we really going to keep them as participants? I'm sure the newbies are going to feel great when shooter X stands next to them in Production gear, with a Caspian slide, Barsto barrel, tungsten guiderod, buried Bo-Mars, and no stock springs in the gun, because after all - they both have 3 pound triggers so all is well.

[racerba]

The Glock 34-35 which are not legal IPSC guns, come with a 3.5# connector so an American 5# limit would mean having to undo a factory trigger job. If a 3# limit were imposed then these guns would be legal and all other DA guns could be brought down to this limit.

Even though it's called a 3.5# connector, the trigger pull is actually around 6.5#

Burden's not on me to prove that your gun is legal. Burden is on *you* to prove your gun is legal. Can you?

I think the burden is on you to prove that my gun is illegal. If it's not prohibited in the rule book, then it should be legal. Of course most of us have seen interpretations by BoD members that are purely objective.

[driver8M3]

I'm sure the newbies are going to feel great when shooter X stands next to them in Production gear, with a Caspian slide, Barsto barrel, tungsten guiderod, buried Bo-Mars, and no stock springs in the gun, because after all - they both have 3 pound triggers so all is well.

that's what's so funny about bruce's argument. apparently he's fine with all those other modifications. but OMG, we cant allow trigger jobs...it will kill the division. give me a break. current members are overwhelmingly against the trigger pull rule. there's little reason to think new members will think differently (after all, all of us current members were once new members). if outlawing trigger jobs <3 lbs is the only way to save the division, someone please tell me why production has been such a huge success the past few years.

[moverfive]

this is where a part of the question I keep asking comes back to - how does setting a pound limit on a trigger job make any difference? And by that I am asking - if I am allowed to do a trigger job (one where I am not redesigning the action in any form or fashion) and the resulting trigger job only makes the gun more 'user friendly,' then where does the pound limit come into play??????

Allowing trigger jobs AND including a pound limit is no different that allowing you to change sites on a gun but not allowing you to have Trijicon or Dawson sights. You either allow trigger jobs or you don't.

If the thought that a new shooter shows up with all of the needed gear to shoot USPSA but decides to quit the sport because another competitor(s) has invested an additional $150 on a trigger job......that isn't happening. Anyone serious about competing in USPSA, $150 is a drop in the bucket of the expenses they will incur and is therefore not the deciding factor if they decide to stay in the sport or not.

The other argument about allowing all of these mods on Production guns will blur the lines with Limited and Limited-10.......come on. The only real changes you can do to a production gun is clean up the trigger and install better sights. The changes you are allowed to do to a Production gun is just the tip of the iceberg of what is done to a real limited gun in most cases.

Again as I asked on a different thread - while Production may not be exactly as some had envisioned it to be several years ago, what is really broken that needs fixing? And specifically in this case - what is broken that requires a 3lb trigger pull to fix?

Edited March 7, 2007 by moverfive

[Gary Stevens]

Can anyone give me the name, address or phone number of a single individual who flat out stated he/she has quit USPSA Production Division because of someone else having a trigger job done?

I would really like to talk to this person, or maybe not

Gary

[ihatepickles]

Gary, something tells me in about 9 months, you'll have about 5000 names and addresses of people that have quit USPSA over a trigger job.

[Flexmoney]

I understand Flex's concerns, but IMO, the benefits outweigh the costs. I rely HEAVILY on the B, C, D class shooter at our club, and anything I can do to keep them happy and coming back, I will vote for. They are a the BACKBONE of our sport. The numbers speak for themselves. Look at the classifications by state. The people I see complaining, are very vocal people who have been in Production for a while, and their skill level is fairly high. They are the minority IMHO. The majority is the shooters who are newer to our sport. They are our target audience. These people shoot mostly local matches, and provide the lions share of the activity credit to USPSA...NOT the people shooting majors with higher classifications.

Hold on there partner. You are painting with pretty broad strokes and you are painting me into a corner.

First, let me make one thing perfectly clear...the proposed rule changes (trigger pull and DOH holster) do NOT effect me and my gear...not one bit.

I'm looking at the new shooter. I'm looking at the backbone of our game. I'm seeing...time and time again...that these shooters want better triggers than the factories are putting out.

We are asking shooters to take a gun designed for 10 yards and in, and shoot with it out to 40y or better. We shoot at 15y+ on a fairly regular basis. Contrast that with our IDPA brothers that have stage design mandates that keep the targets inside of 15y most of the time...often closer, as they look at things from a likely self-defense perspective.

I challenge anybody to go spend some time on the GlockTalk forum...the XD forum...the M&P forum...the CZ forum...any "production" gun forum. You won't see a bunch of USPSA shooters there, but you will see post after post, thread after thread...asking about improving the triggers on those guns. That is what I'd call...a hint.

US shooters want better triggers.

We aren't scaring newbies away by polishing parts and changing springs in a Glock (which cost$ less than a match fee).

What scares newbies is all the hype that we put out about better gear.

If you don't want to new shooter to be gear happy, lead from the front. Nobody in our area can make much of an argument that they need special gear. They get beat too often by guys with pretty stock Glocks or 15 year old Open guns.

We have something that has been in place. We have something that has been working. If were are going to do a change, it should have a pretty clear cut benefit. The clarity of that benefit certainly isn't present here.

Production is...by far...the strongest division in the Ohio Section. It's sure doesnt need much fixin', from my perspective.

[Middle Man]

I'm looking at the new shooter. I'm looking at the backbone of our game. I'm seeing...time and time again...that these shooters want better triggers than the factories are putting out.

I challenge anybody to go spend some time on the GlockTalk forum...the XD forum...the M&P forum...the CZ forum...any "production" gun forum. You won't see a bunch of USPSA shooters there, but you will see post after post, thread after thread...asking about improving the triggers on those guns. That is what I'd call...a hint.

US shooters want better triggers.

We aren't scaring newbies away by polishing parts and changing springs in a Glock (which cost$ less than a match fee).

What scares newbies is all the hype that we put out about better gear.

+1 Flex's observation of conversations on different forums is spot on. Every shooter, every gun buyer wants a better, cleaner trigger pull.

[Gary Stevens]

Well said Grasshopper, or is that Flexhopper

Mr. Disliker of Pickles, I fear you might be right.

Edited March 7, 2007 by Gary Stevens

[txaggie]

I guess the other point I don't understand is that a new shooter will be scared away. A new shooter is going to get smoked by a GM/M/A class shooter if that highly skilled shooter is using a single action Ruger Redhawk. The entry level classes are the C/D classification in all of the divisions, whether they be Production, Limited, or Open.

If the competitions were truly heads up, then I could see the argument a little clearer, but the box stock newbie is protected from the upper echelon of competition by the classification system.

And yes, I do have a dog in this fight, I am a B-class shooter in Production, but I guess I have competed in my last Production match, and I am moving my "near" Production Glock to Limited. BTW, the only thing that is not "stock" on my Glock is my Wolff firing pin spring and Wolff main recoil spring. I don't know if it will be less than 3#, but who wants to chance it and get bumped to open because the measuring system is (and will be inadequate).

Edited March 7, 2007 by txaggie

[Micah]

My main concern with the trigger pull issue is the potential for creating an exodus of Glock/XD/M&P shooters to be forced into shooting DA/SA pistols. Since the pull weight test is only for the 1st pull, those with DA/SA guns will be at a significant advantage. Why shoot a "mushy" trigger at 3.5+lbs when you can, after the first 5lbs pull, run with a 1.5lbs trigger?

The best way to engage more shooters is not to make LIMITATIONS.

[Barrettone]

I understand Flex's concerns, but IMO, the benefits outweigh the costs. I rely HEAVILY on the B, C, D class shooter at our club, and anything I can do to keep them happy and coming back, I will vote for. They are a the BACKBONE of our sport. The numbers speak for themselves. Look at the classifications by state. The people I see complaining, are very vocal people who have been in Production for a while, and their skill level is fairly high. They are the minority IMHO. The majority is the shooters who are newer to our sport. They are our target audience. These people shoot mostly local matches, and provide the lions share of the activity credit to USPSA...NOT the people shooting majors with higher classifications.

Hold on there partner. You are painting with pretty broad strokes and you are painting me into a corner.

First, let me make one thing perfectly clear...the proposed rule changes (trigger pull and DOH holster) do NOT effect me and my gear...not one bit.

I'm looking at the new shooter. I'm looking at the backbone of our game. I'm seeing...time and time again...that these shooters want better triggers than the factories are putting out.

We aren't scaring newbies away by polishing parts and changing springs in a Glock (which cost$ less than a match fee).

What scares newbies is all the hype that we put out about better gear.

Production is...by far...the strongest division in the Ohio Section. It's sure doesnt need much fixin', from my perspective.

You said the magic word Flexdoggy...PERSPECTIVE. I have to sell the fact that equipment doesn't matter. When the guy is surrounded with other production shooters with slicked up gear, that dog won't hunt. IF SHOOTERS WANT BETTER TRIGGERS, WELCOME TO LIMITED!!! This wasn't meant to be a slam on you in particular Flex, but most of the shooters in our sport have a life, and don't spend countless hours on these forums like we do. That is why some of these polls here are far less than scientific. Maybe a poll asking everybodys class might prove my point that there is a SIGNIFICANTLY different ratio of classed people here who eat, sleep and sh!t this sport than is true of the demographic of USPSA membership as a whole. Also keep in mind, that not EVERYBODY who shoots local USPSA matches is a member either.

Gary:

PM me if you like and I can give you the phone numbers, emails and maybe even a DNA sample (don't ask how) of at least 5 individuals who shot our club and never came back when they felt there was the equipment inequity I discussed. We pride ourselves on the fact that there is supposedly a division for everybody. With the current production ruleset, I feel we are not sending that message. Guess I have to agree to disagree with you guys.

Edited March 7, 2007 by Barrettone

[Barrettone]

I guess the other point I don't understand is that a new shooter will be scared away. A new shooter is going to get smoked by a GM/M/A class shooter if that highly skilled shooter is using a single action Ruger Redhawk. The entry level classes are the C/D classification in all of the divisions, whether they be Production, Limited, or Open.

If the competitions were truly heads up, then I could see the argument a little clearer, but the box stock newbie is protected from the upper echelon of competition by the classification system.

See that is where you are dead wrong. This division has ALWAYS been marketed as THE beginner division for USPSA. We are CONSTANTLY telling people to go out, get a Glock, some kydex and a little 9mm ammo, and they can come play on a LEVEL playing field. Then, after they do all this, they realize that others have thousands more invested in their "production" rig, and they feel there is an inequity. We can argue until the cows come home whether or not that feeling is valid, but one thing is for sure...it is very real. As long as we cover our ears and sing "la-la-la", the problem isn't going to go away.

We need a marketing strategy to combat these things. It is too hard for me to sell the sport to potential newbies as long as production guys are allowed to tinker. Sorry.

[Tim James]

The one interesting comment I heard centered around how could L10 be differentiated from Limited (let's see if it can be made more than just a "Limited-Lite" division). Sounded like a fresh thought in the room. It got a few heads turning and one could see the wheels really start to spin for a few moments as folks reflected on the idea.

I thought this was the most interesting comment in this thread. With everyone drawn up on their own side of the perceived dichotomy, it's nice to see that someone is thinking about a third way.

US shooters want better triggers.

Heck, I don't even want one to be more competitive. I know that my money would be better spent on ammo or practice. I just want it so I can have a huge smile on my face every time I pull the trigger. But I realize I'm in the minority because..

PERSPECTIVE. I have to sell the fact that equipment doesn't matter.

I genuinely wish you good luck selling this sport, because as I've mentioned before, whenever you have a competitive male hobby, you will have individuals who make excuses about equipment, the weather, the rules, the length of the shots, the color of the targets, etc. all because they are afraid to participate and possibly lose. When this proposed rule becomes law, I challenge you to ask those 5 individuals in your club to come back to the sport. I'm quite sure they will have another excuse.

Or maybe I'm wrong; maybe it takes some wisdom and experience before you can understand that it's not the trigger pull that matters, and you have to get them in the door first. On the other hand, I can't figure out why I understood this after only a month in the sport. Maybe USPSA should start advertising to get people to improve their personalities?

Edited March 7, 2007 by Tim James

[GeorgeInNePa]

If this rule goes through, I will be putting my slicked-up G34 for sale. Probably to an IDPA-er, because for some reason USPSA will have more restrictive rules than IDPA.

Then I will be buying a DA/SA gun and I'll spend then bucks to trick it out, including a trigger job that will give me a single action pull that will make a 1911 shooter blush.

Then, when I go to a match, the newbies will still complain and they will still use the "I got beat because his gun is trickier than mine" EXCUSE.

PERSPECTIVE. I have to sell the fact that equipment doesn't matter.

I genuinely wish you good luck selling this sport, because as I've mentioned before, whenever you have a competitive male hobby, you will have individuals who make excuses about equipment, the weather, the rules, the length of the shots, the color of the targets, etc. all because they are afraid to participate and possibly lose. When this proposed rule becomes law, I challenge you to ask those 5 individuals in your club to come back to the sport. I'm quite sure they will have another excuse.

Or maybe I'm wrong; maybe it takes some wisdom and experience before you can understand that it's not the trigger pull that matters, and you have to get them in the door first. On the other hand, I can't figure out why I understood this after only a month in the sport. Maybe USPSA should start advertising to get people to improve their personalities?

+1

Exactly!

[ihatepickles]

This division has ALWAYS been marketed as THE beginner division for USPSA.

You are wrong. It has never been marketed as a beginner division. It is not a beginner division.

As long as we cover our ears and sing "la-la-la", the problem isn't going to go away.

There is no problem to solve. You are in a very small minority that believes anything needs to be solved.

It is too hard for me to sell the sport to potential newbies as long as production guys are allowed to tinker. Sorry.

Who's asking anyone to sell anything? Either bring your gear and come shoot or stay home. Is there some extra effort required at your club to motivate people to come shoot?

At the risk of being completely sarcastic, I love how we're asked for our opinion, and then we're told "oh you're just the vocal people, everyone else disagrees with you silently so we're not using your input". This is utter crap.

[Flexmoney]

Well said Grasshopper...

lol...Gary, I don't know if this helps, but my mostly stock Glock shoots 'minute of insect' at least out to 15y.

[txaggie]

If the goal of production is to allow box stock guns to compete, then we had better go all the way. There will be no grip tape, no grip sleeves, no replacement sights, no USER MODIFICATIONS AT ALL. In other words, buy the gun and bring it out to the range with only factory available and factory installed options. That is the only way to truly have a stock division, if that is the goal.