mcb Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 (edited) I have been shooting USPSA for about two years now. So I was around for the inception of the Single Stack division. Now being new to USPSA, handguns (long time hunter and rifle shooter) and not know USPSA's historical attachment to 1911's I have to say that when I first read the rules for the division I was sorely disappointed. I was hoping/expecting it to be a division for all single stack handguns not a division exclusively for 1911 patterned Single Stack handguns. As I am sure all of you know there are a lot of other Single Stack guns out there and so it would seem more appropriate for the present provisional Single Stack division to have been named the 1911 division or some similar name that indicates that its a division for 1911's not a division for single stacks in general. Probably a non-issue but the name does not make complete sense to someone that does not know some of the history or IPSC and USPSA. Rambling mcb Edited February 8, 2007 by mcb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bell Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 I have been shooting USPSA for about two years now. So I was around for the inception of the Single Stack division. Now being new to USPSA, handguns (long time hunter and rifle shooter) and not know USPSA's historical attachment to 1911's I have to say that when I first read the rules for the division I was sorely disappointed. I was hoping/expecting it to be a division for all single stack handguns not a division exclusively for 1911 patterned Single Stack handguns. As I am sure all of you know there are a lot of other Single Stack guns out there and so it would seem more appropriate for the present provisional Single Stack division to have been named the 1911 division or some similar name that indicates that its a division for 1911's not a division for single stacks in general.Probably a non-issue but the name does not make complete sense to someone that does not know some of the history or IPSC and USPSA. Rambling mcb I was thrilled at the prospect of a single stack division. It's what brought me back to USPSA after a very long layoff. I never gave the rules a lot of thought other than that it was made for my 1911 pistols. Now that you mention it, you have a good point. I'd support opening the division to other single stack guns as long as they met all other division criterea, particularly the limit on the number of rounds in the magazine. To me, that's the one element necessary to give those who love their relatively unaltered 1911s a continued place to participate competitively. I think it's important to ensure those that founded our sport have a place in it, but I know of no reason at all that we need to limit it to 1911 pistols only. Now that I've said that, I'll bet half a dozen people will come along to tell me what those reasons are. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted February 8, 2007 Author Share Posted February 8, 2007 I don't necessarily think that other Single Stack handgun should/need to be let into the present 1911-only Single Stack division, although it would be cool. IMHO I really like the traditionally low magazine limits that are different between Major and Minor (Limited is similarly but not as explicit) and I still think that Single Stack is the one division where Minor has a chance (probably small) at being competitive. Now that I know more of the history of USPSA and IPSC the present Single Stack division make perfect sense to me. Its just the name can mislead those, that don't know the history of the sport, to make incorrect assumption about the division. It seems that it should be call the 1911 division as that would more accurately represent the rules that division uses. mcb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Minor is very competitive in Production division. Are there really other SS besides old slab sides? Slightly tongue in cheek but I use 1911 and SS interchangablely like Kleenex and Tissues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Technically, the Sig 220, 245, etc are single stack guns. Some S&W .45 and .40 cal are single stacks (maybe even some 9mm). It's just that these are DA/SA gun and not Single Action Only as required by the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted February 8, 2007 Author Share Posted February 8, 2007 From the same era there's always the guns on the other side of the WWII Luger Weather P-38 Nambu Type 14 Nambu Type 94 Yes, I probably deserve to be beaten severely about the head and body for mentioning a Nambu in a thread about 1911's but P-38 replicas are common and affordable. More modern guns: All Kahrs are single stack. Sig makes a few single stack handguns. Several Ruger handguns are single stack S&W makes several non-1911 single stacks I'm sure we could continue as I have likely missed a lot of single stacks that aren't 1911's. As I said before having not been indoctrinated at the time with the history of USPSA/IPSC and combat handguns in general the association between "Single Stack" and 1911 was not there for me. Rambing mcb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 For me, single stack has always been a euphemism for 1911. Nothing else is a single stack to me. I realize the literal meaning includes a ton of other pistols, that's just my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Minor is very competitive in Production division. Are there really other SS besides old slab sides? Slightly tongue in cheek but I use 1911 and SS interchangeably like Kleenex and Tissues To answer an obviously rhetorical question. No. There is only one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 1911..45 auto.......like cheeze and crackers they go together! I vote to leave the class as is. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted February 8, 2007 Author Share Posted February 8, 2007 1911..45 auto.......like cheeze and crackers they go together!I vote to leave the class as is. Jim I agree I don't think the rules of Single Stack should change just the name so it's more descriptive of what the division is really about. The 1911 division is a far more accurate name for the present Single Stack division. Single Stack implies a much larger variety of handguns to some shooters, handguns that are not allowed in the Single Stack division. Rambling mcb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
et45 Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 1911..45 auto.......like cheeze and crackers they go together!I vote to leave the class as is. Jim And as long as the marriage between USPSA and the Single Stack Classic continues so shall it be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 (edited) Too open the Division up to all single stack guns is interesting at first glance. However, one has to weigh what you gain with what you lose. I go back to the original mission statement that clearly stated the division was marketed toward the approximately dozen manufactureres of 1911's. With that in mind, I began wondering how many additional shooters would we gain to open the division up? I don't know the real answer, but I suspect the numbers are relatively small. While on any given day shoters of equal skill can swap places on the results, I think it is reasonably safe to say that most of the time a 1911 will out place a Sig 220 in the hands of equal skilled shooters. In addition I would bet that most of the owners of Sig 220's also own a 1911. While some harp about the relationship between the SSC and USPSA in this division it is beneficial to both of us. The SSC is again hosting the USPSA Single Stack Nationals. They have enlarged the match, and have once again filled up quickly. Each of these shooters have to be members of USPSA. Last year we gained about 40 new members because of this single fact. In addition the match must pay activity fees to USPSA at 5 dollars a shooter. USPSA gets good press out of the match. The match cost USPSA no money, and they use our rules. It is a win-win situation for USPSA. To open the division up to all guns would kill that relationship. So I am back to the original question. Do we gain more than we lose? Gary Edited February 11, 2007 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted February 11, 2007 Author Share Posted February 11, 2007 Gary you lay down good reasons to leave single stack the way it is. If left as is wouldn't 1911 be a more accurate name for the division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Great green gobs of granulated gopher guts.... I vote we all just get over all of this anal nitpicking BS, say single stack division and get on with our lives.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Actually the 1911 was in the original draft. It got shortened for whatever reason as time went along. If the division goes full time, we will have an opportunity to address all of these issues including the finalized name which might include 1911 Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 I began wondering how many additional shooters would we gain to open the division up? I don't know the real answer, but I suspect the numbers are relatively small. I just find that kinda funny. Sorry Gary. "Relatively small" ? I think we had all of 3 pss shooters last year. I know we have a few regulars that shoot those non-1911 S&W's. In fact, somebody brought one over to my place last weekend for me to eye-ball. So, I guess at our club, you could "double" the amount of shooters...but, you still be in single digits. (fwiw, the shooters that have the non-1911 single-stacks are fairly regular shooters...the few pss shooters we got last year were not regulars) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Point taken Flex, but I was taking a organizational viewpoint. Unfortunately I am now in a position that I can't make decisions based on what particular gun I have or would like to shoot, but on a strategic view. The problems with PSSD are beyond my control at this point. There is too much resistance to having the classifiers count without the division being full time, and that is a factor among many members. I could solve these problems if I were willing to sacrifice L-10. I could have SS full time next year, I believe. However, I am not willing to make that trade, so the problems, real or perceived, will have to remain. There are a few other organizational issues, but again, I can't address them from my single position on the BOD. This is year two of three. We will see what shakes out. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 (edited) 1911..45 auto.......like cheeze and crackers they go together!I vote to leave the class as is. Jim I want to relate this to some Minor threads and concern. Anything less than .45 should be Minor in theh SSD!! Edited February 11, 2007 by zhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyloks Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 I want to relate this to some Minor threads and concern. Anything less than .45 shold be Minor in theh SSD!! i would like to know, if have a cz 52 in 7.62 x25 that makes major but does not meet the caliber requirements fits into alll of this. it is a single stack that only holds 8 or 9 rounds depending on mag. mfg. i would like to see a place for this?? just thought i would fogup the issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bell Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 1911..45 auto.......like cheeze and crackers they go together! I vote to leave the class as is. Jim I want to relate this to some Minor threads and concern. Anything less than .45 should be Minor in theh SSD!! I shoot .45, 10mm and .40 in Single Stack. All three guns are loaded to shoot as close to the same as possible. I currently use 180 grain JHPs for the 10mm and .40 loaded to shoot right around 925 fps and a 185 grain JHP in my Gold Cup at just over 900 fps. It's hard to say which one is "less" and which is more. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I suggest we ban Zhunter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 While some harp about the relationship between the SSC and USPSA in this division it is beneficial to both of us. The SSC is again hosting the USPSA Single Stack Nationals. They have enlarged the match, and have once again filled up quickly. Each of these shooters have to be members of USPSA. Last year we gained about 40 new members because of this single fact. In addition the match must pay activity fees to USPSA at 5 dollars a shooter. USPSA gets good press out of the match. The match cost USPSA no money, and they use our rules. It is a win-win situation for USPSA.To open the division up to all guns would kill that relationship. So I am back to the original question. Do we gain more than we lose? Gary Mr. Stevens, Thank you much for this explanation. Now I understand the why of this issue. I was initially against the relationship because to some point it complicated our equipment rules, namely holsters. Instead of USPSA being able to have just one set of holster rules for Production and PSSD, the relationship with the SSC made us change that because they wouldn't accept one of the most widely used holsters in USPSA today, the DOH. As we move towards the new 2008 rules that may be fixed, if we stay in the course of eliminating the DOH, something I'm against, as well as adopting the IDPA box. I have come to accept that if the practical shooting sports in the US were a planet, the USPSA would be the World Power. Just like the USA, nobody changes anything to accomodate us but we are always willing to go the extra mile to make everybody happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Since SSC has a set of rules and is holding the USPSA SS Nats and apparently most of the competitors are already USPSA members since only about 40 people joined in order to shoot the SSC, why not have SS as a division, with its own set of rules. Why do we need to mess with production because of SS? They are DIFFERENT. They will never be the same. If you were to make them one division, you would essential destroy Production. If you merge it with L10 you destroy that division. Let us look at this the way we looked at geometry All squares are rectangles, all rectangles are parallelograms. all parallelograms are quadrangles. Not all Quadrangles are Squares. All SS Guns can play in Open, Limited, Limited 10 and SS. Not all L10, or Limited guns can play in SS. Cascade the divisions so that we make each higher-level division accept all divisions below it, don't destroy an upper level division to accommodate a lower order division. And before anyone screams at me, I am not saying that any division is better than another, simply that the hierarchy of the equipment is ordered in a certain way. Open accepts virtually anything, down to Revolver which accepts only a non-compensated, no-dot six-shooter. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I suggest we ban Zhunter! Typical Jax-onian!!! Hey, I bring humor to this place, especially when some of the folks here are a bit "worked up" about things!!! I love ya anyway Nelson!!! And, I need to come up to St. Augustine and shoot with the Colon clan one of these days! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Ok, Jay! With all this love I can't possibly suggest we ban you... Let's ban Wesselman instead... after all he's the gamer shooting a 40 skinny gun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now