9x23 For Carry

[Flexmoney]

What is the breach face on a M20? Is it not a 10mm/40 s&w? The 9mm case head will not work or am I missing something.

I wish I could speak to it from experience. All I can say is I've read of reports of it working fine in the G20...and none of it not working. I did try some SuperComp brass in a G20 mag. Seemed good to go in that regard.

[benny hill]

Checked it today. The breach face is .431 or 40 s&w. The breach face on the 9mm is .396. With a 9mm barrel in the mod. 20 the exj. just barley touches the rim enough to pull it out. It has NO tension on the rim. The front of the exj. runs into the case body really bad when in battery. It may go bang but it is far from right. What else am I missing?

[Merlin Orr]

What is the breach face on a M20? Is it not a 10mm/40 s&w? The 9mm case head will not work or am I missing something.

I wish I could speak to it from experience. All I can say is I've read of reports of it working fine in the G20...and none of it not working. I did try some SuperComp brass in a G20 mag. Seemed good to go in that regard.

We just took Benny's G35 down and took a look. For the 9X case to fit flush/square to the breechface the extractor has to be pushed sideways and under considerable pressure. There is enough room that the 9X case is cocked sideways and there is a big gap between the case head and the breechface on the extractor side. When the cartridge is forced into the barrel it puts the extractor in a bind well outside where it will "ride" the casegroove on a .40. The 9 X 23 may work but it sure looks Rube Goldberg to me...

Edit.. Uhhh. Benny beat me to the punch/post.

Edited January 25, 2007 by Merlin Orr

[zhunter]

If the part of Texas you live in is anti-gun, or even neutral, you might want to go with something more mundane. Don't want to take a chance on a jury thinking you were just waiting for the chance to go Rambo on some poor underprivileged guy who had to do some self-help redistribution of wealth to balance out social injustice.

The state of Texas gives the average citizen lots of room when it comes to the legal use of deadly force...and if I ever have to shoot anyone again as a civilian, my firm belief is that you cannot kill then TOO dead...Like Baretta said, "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime"

Flroida is much the same. Several Police friends of mine used to tell me that, "Dead people DON'T testify against ya!!!!!"

[Larry White]

Dead men tell no lies.----------Larry

[Flexmoney]

Checked it today. The breach face is .431 or 40 s&w. The breach face on the 9mm is .396. With a 9mm barrel in the mod. 20 the exj. just barley touches the rim enough to pull it out. It has NO tension on the rim. The front of the exj. runs into the case body really bad when in battery. It may go bang but it is far from right. What else am I missing?

I think it was John Ricco who first put a 9x23 barrel into the G20. Didn't he have a hand in inventing the cartridge ?

I just put 18 rounds (with room for +1) of 9mm into a G20 mag and hand cycled them. They all extracted fine in that manner.

I'd have to go look it up, but maybe the 9x23 has an extractor groove (forward) that is angled enough to get by without hitting the extractor ? (I don't think I have any 9x23 brass handy...unless it's in my scrap pile in the garage.)

I do recall reports that Ricco's only mod was a new barrel. I don't believe he was hogging any metal off anywhere.

************

check that...just read an old post elsewhere:

MLC

"When I spoke to the folks at Classic pistol they told me that the barrel, recoil spring and extractor were changed. They said the factory mags were fine."

************

Maybe it's majic. Or, maybe it wouldn't hold up.

Like I said...I've never tried it.

[eerw]

one of the older threads over on pistolsmith where this was talked about..

Glock20 and 9x23

[Bear1142]

Alright Merlin, let me be the doubter. I would recommend against it.

1. There is no viable practice ammunition available, which means you're going to have to reload.

2. There is only one ammunition manufacturer making a true self-defense load, and it's extremely hard to find and expensive.

3. Brass is expensive for reloading.

This just doesn't sound like a good combination to me. If you're looking for 357 magnum style ballistics, I would recommend going with a 357 Sig round.

1. There is plenty of practice ammunition available.

2. Speer makes a 125 Gold Dot that is outstanding. It's neck & neck with the 45 230 GD for performance. I get just a shade under 1,400 fps with my Sig 226. A 5" 1911 barrel should put you over 1,400 fps easy.

3. From the previous posts, you are only going to run the 9x23 magazine with 9 rounds because of stacking issues and not 10. The 357 Sig is based on a necked down 40 S&W and we already run our competition 40's with 9 rounds in the magazine, so we know we can make it run.

4. The 357 is a tapered round, so it should feed quite well in a 1911 platform and the shorter case should be easier to eject.

To summarize:

Practice ammo available- +1

Carry ammo available with kick ass performance- +1

Same magazine capacity as a 9x23- +1

Theoretically feeds and ejects better for a more reliable carry gun- +1

I think the choice is clear. Now get Benny on that project. I'd like to see how it turns out by SMM3G.

Erik

[Merlin Orr]

Erik

Everything you say is true and on the mark...but...I already have a 1911 in .357 Sig. Great gun with wonderful ballistics! Its just that I happen to have a 1911 in every caliber ever chambered but the 9X23 and the 45-70 Gov. and Benny says the 45/70 may have feeding problems...

[benny hill]

Merlin may need something a little bigger in case he needs to go "BEAR" hunting.

[Anthony Lombardo]

Alright Merlin, let me be the doubter. I would recommend against it.

1. There is no viable practice ammunition available, which means you're going to have to reload.

2. There is only one ammunition manufacturer making a true self-defense load, and it's extremely hard to find and expensive.

3. Brass is expensive for reloading.

This just doesn't sound like a good combination to me. If you're looking for 357 magnum style ballistics, I would recommend going with a 357 Sig round.

1. There is plenty of practice ammunition available.

2. Speer makes a 125 Gold Dot that is outstanding. It's neck & neck with the 45 230 GD for performance. I get just a shade under 1,400 fps with my Sig 226. A 5" 1911 barrel should put you over 1,400 fps easy.

3. From the previous posts, you are only going to run the 9x23 magazine with 9 rounds because of stacking issues and not 10. The 357 Sig is based on a necked down 40 S&W and we already run our competition 40's with 9 rounds in the magazine, so we know we can make it run.

4. The 357 is a tapered round, so it should feed quite well in a 1911 platform and the shorter case should be easier to eject.

To summarize:

Practice ammo available- +1

Carry ammo available with kick ass performance- +1

Same magazine capacity as a 9x23- +1

Theoretically feeds and ejects better for a more reliable carry gun- +1

I think the choice is clear. Now get Benny on that project. I'd like to see how it turns out by SMM3G.

Erik

Okay, where do we begin.

First and foremost undertsand that in most cases you can run .38 super in a 9x23 pistol. Lots of brass and ammo available there.

If you want to stick with a rimless round for practice, Atlanta Arms runs .38 supercomp for the AMU that costs $12 a box. There is your practice load. The hot ticket is to have two barrels fitted-one in 9mm and one in 9x23. They use the same extractor, breechface and ejector. A spring and mag change and you are shooting 9mm para.

There is more than one self defense load. Corbon has 2 and Winchester lods silvertips in 9x23. Not a great selection, but Corbon's loadings look like the heat.

.357 SIG doesn't work worth a hoot in a singlestack 1911 platform. Nothing with a bottleneck works very well in a singlestack 1911 and the .357 SIG doesn't have enough neck tension in a lot of cases to withstand the 1911 feeding cycle. To make it work you usually need to download magazines to 7-8 rds.

You will get a comfortable 100 fps over a .357 SIG with a 9x23. If the manufacturers would load it to its potential they could load a 125 grain bullet at 1600 fps, but they dont..

In a small pistol with straight line feeding the .357 SIG is hard to beat. I would love a Kahr K-9 in the caliber, for example.

[Bruce]

Alright Merlin, let me be the doubter. I would recommend against it.

1. There is no viable practice ammunition available, which means you're going to have to reload.

2. There is only one ammunition manufacturer making a true self-defense load, and it's extremely hard to find and expensive.

3. Brass is expensive for reloading.

This just doesn't sound like a good combination to me. If you're looking for 357 magnum style ballistics, I would recommend going with a 357 Sig round.

1. There is plenty of practice ammunition available.

2. Speer makes a 125 Gold Dot that is outstanding. It's neck & neck with the 45 230 GD for performance. I get just a shade under 1,400 fps with my Sig 226. A 5" 1911 barrel should put you over 1,400 fps easy.

3. From the previous posts, you are only going to run the 9x23 magazine with 9 rounds because of stacking issues and not 10. The 357 Sig is based on a necked down 40 S&W and we already run our competition 40's with 9 rounds in the magazine, so we know we can make it run.

4. The 357 is a tapered round, so it should feed quite well in a 1911 platform and the shorter case should be easier to eject.

To summarize:

Practice ammo available- +1

Carry ammo available with kick ass performance- +1

Same magazine capacity as a 9x23- +1

Theoretically feeds and ejects better for a more reliable carry gun- +1

I think the choice is clear. Now get Benny on that project. I'd like to see how it turns out by SMM3G.

Erik

I have never owned a .357 Sig, so can't compare the two.

9x23 ammo is made by CorBon, Winchester, and Glaser. 2 of the 3 are expensive, indeed.

Zanders recently had a sale on Winchester 9x23 @ $11 per 50. They are now sold out. Have not priced other places like Jerry's, etc. The last new 9x23 ammo I bought was at a gun store that was closing it out at a little under $10 per 50 (that was a year ago though). I bought all they had, like 40 boxes or so.

Midway is selling new brass in 9x23 for less than same maker brass in .357 Sig. No idea how long the sale difference will be available. .357 Sig once-fired is available though, and have never seen that in 9x23.

I have never had a feed / magazine problem in any of my 9x23 guns.

The .357 Sig does have LE followers so it would be likely that it will be more available, longer, than 9x23, but I have never had a problem getting 9x23 ammo, it is sold through places like Midway, Natchez, etc.

Benny built a switch-barrel 9x23 1911 for a buddy of mine and I have tried like heck to steal the gun when he is not looking. No luck yet. The pistol is a thing of beauty, and runs great.

[Genghis]

The state of Texas gives the average citizen lots of room when it comes to the legal use of deadly force...and if I ever have to shoot anyone again as a civilian, my firm belief is that you cannot kill then TOO dead...Like Baretta said, "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime"

True when you look at the Penal Code, but there is a LOT of discretion in a self-defense case. You have to believe your use of force is immediately necessary to protect yourself against deadly force or one of a specified list of crimes. Your belief has to be reasonable. You may in some circumstances be required to retreat instead of using force. These elements leave a lot of room for someone to go after you.

The prosecutor can go to the grand jury and spin it to try to get an indictment, or to try to get a no-bill. The grand jury (or petit jury for that matter) can focus on one minute detail and use it to conclude that you weren't acting legitimately in self-defense. An unfavorable judge can admit or exclude evidence and affect the outcome, or can subtly hint to the jury how he thinks the case should come out. If you're "judged by twelve," the attitudes of those twelve will strongly affect your future.

And keep in mind that while Texas is generally pretty gun-friendly, like every state, it has pockets of people who are dead set against your right to defend yourself.

Edited January 26, 2007 by Genghis

[Bear1142]

There is more than one self defense load. Corbon has 2 and Winchester lods silvertips in 9x23. Not a great selection, but Corbon's loadings look like the heat.

My mistake. I thought Corbon had dropped the 9x23. I just checked and it is still available.

.357 SIG doesn't work worth a hoot in a singlestack 1911 platform. Nothing with a bottleneck works very well in a singlestack 1911 and the .357 SIG doesn't have enough neck tension in a lot of cases to withstand the 1911 feeding cycle. To make it work you usually need to download magazines to 7-8 rds.

Sorry, but this has not been my experience. I have shot both SS and SVI hi-caps in 357 Sig and they both ran very well.

You will get a comfortable 100 fps over a .357 SIG with a 9x23. If the manufacturers would load it to its potential they could load a 125 grain bullet at 1600 fps, but they dont..

This may be entirely accurate, but as for commercial self defense ammunition. The 9x23 loads list a 125 @ 1,450 from a 5" barrel and the 357 Sig 125 @ 1,425 from a 4" barrel. A 5" barrel chambered in 357 Sig is the ballistic equivalent of the 9x23.

...and the .357 SIG doesn't have enough neck tension in a lot of cases to withstand the 1911 feeding cycle...In a small pistol with straight line feeding the .357 SIG is hard to beat.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "Straight line feeding", but bullets specifically designed for the 357 Sig have a different ogive profile and they have plenty of surface area for adequate neck tension. Montana Gold Bullet has pictures of the different bullets. You can see the different profile on the 357 Sig specific bullet.

Merlin,

How is your 357 Sig running?

Respectfully,

Erik

Edited January 26, 2007 by Bear1142

[benny hill]

Have crono'ed both shells. The 9x23 out of a 5" schumman barrel goes 1516 fps in the 125 jsp. The 125 silvertip goes 1442 fps. Out of my glock mod.31 the golddot 125hp goes 1389fps in 357 sig. Either one will do what you need. Also checked the 9mm win ranger 127jhp +p+ law enforc. rd out of my glock 17l 6" briley barrel & it went 1358fps for 172,400 power factory in a factory loadinf WOW!

[Anthony Lombardo]

Benny, your experience (and chrono velocities) mirror mine although my silvertip readings were a bit higher (1475-85)

I have never been able to get better than 1375 out of a 5" barrel chambered in .357 SIG.

Benny,

what is your opinion on running .357 SIG in a 1911 single stack?

Edited January 26, 2007 by Anthony Lombardo

[bigbrowndog]

now if you could just figure out those feeding problems for the 45-70!!!!!! .......RM3G, would have a new heavy metal round for handgun

If merlin needs somethin' BIG for BEAR huntin' he can borrow whatever he wants from me, 40gr to 7000gr. projectiles.

Trapr

[benny hill]

Merlin,

How is your 357 Sig running?

Respectfully,

Erik

My .357 shares a frame with a .40. Gun is an alloy Officer frame with a Commander (Nowlin) barrels. Just ran down to the river and shot a mag full through the chrono. Hornady 124s went 1286 for an average through the 4" gun. Gun runs great with 7 in the Wilson Officer's mag.

Posted by Merlin....

Edited January 26, 2007 by benny hill