I Need To Get My Sight Picture Back!

[steel1212]

I'm using less sights and more just pointing and shooting and its driving me nuts. I'm good enough at it that I can hold my own where I'm at but if I don't improve I'll be stuck at this level.

Any tips or training ideas?

[Matt Cheely]

Call all of your shots and shoot ONLY A's for a few matches.

[benos]

I'm using less sights and more just pointing and shooting and its driving me nuts. I'm good enough at it that I can hold my own where I'm at but if I don't improve I'll be stuck at this level.

Definitely.

You have to learn on what targets you can "get away with" "pointing and shooting A's," - all the time - and on what targets you have to see "more" on.

Don't care about "holding your own," think about what it's going to take to beat Robbie.

be

[steel1212]

I'm using less sights and more just pointing and shooting and its driving me nuts. I'm good enough at it that I can hold my own where I'm at but if I don't improve I'll be stuck at this level.

Definitely.

You have to learn on what targets you can "get away with" "pointing and shooting A's," - all the time - and on what targets you have to see "more" on.

Don't care about "holding your own," think about what it's going to take to beat Robbie.

be

Yeah thats what I'm saying. I'm good enough at it that I can hold my own at this level but I won't move from this level doing that. I know on the 7 yard targets I can pretty much hose but if I start with those targets I'll keep that type of shooting through the rest of the stage. If I start with some farther targets I'm more inclined to watch my sights a little more. It really popped out when I got to the last stage of the IDPA match this weekend. it was 3 strings with 3 seperate targets. 5 shot bill drills, 7, 10, and 15 yards. I put them all in baseball sized hole on the 15 yard target because I did see the sights and knew I did. It was the best shooting I did all day. I actually knew I did it before I looked and called the one flyer.

[Flexmoney]

You seem to want to think you need to aim. What is stopping you ? What are you putting more value on instead of aiming ?

[Nik Habicht]

I know on the 7 yard targets I can pretty much hose but if I start with those targets I'll keep that type of shooting through the rest of the stage. If I start with some farther targets I'm more inclined to watch my sights a little more.

The real trick here --- the one I found harder to learn than "see what you need to see, and only that" for any particular target ---- is to learn how to effortlessly change from one type of visual focus to another as you transition from target to target.....

Think of it as constantly changing the setting on a rheostat as you shoot the stage.....

[ReyesR]

I have the same problem. Last club match after shooting several months in open class, I decided to go shoot limited. (To lazy to clean open gun ).

It happened, I was just point shooting. I was focusing more on the target rather than the front sight. Called my buddy "Loves to shoot", He said "Spot on the target, front sight, spot on the target , front sight...This is a must". So I went back to dry firing focusing on looking at a spot on the target then swithching to the front sight and so on. Hope this helps.

[steel1212]

You seem to want to think you need to aim. What is stopping you ? What are you putting more value on instead of aiming ?

What every other noobie does....speed. I'll go into the stage knowing I need and just end up not doing it! What aggrivates me more than anything is that I know better I just don't do it.

[AzoneHits]

What aggrivates me more than anything is that I know better I just don't do it.

Same thing here. It's the worse thing that can happen.

[Flexmoney]

You seem to want to think you need to aim. What is stopping you ? What are you putting more value on instead of aiming ?

What every other noobie does....speed. I'll go into the stage knowing I need and just end up not doing it! What aggrivates me more than anything is that I know better I just don't do it.

Have you read the Lanny Bassham book ?

[boo radley]

Have you read the Lanny Bassham book ?

I have...does he address this particular issue, though? Beyond the one-size-fits-all solution of telling oneself, "It's like me to have visual patience," etc? I'm not trivializing; just asking.

Here is my question, as I have the same fundamental problem that Steel1212 does, and countless others before and after:

Why does this one specific area -- seeing the necessary sight picture, before firing the shot -- seem to require so much mental discipline?

We have the control and discipline to slow down before running past fault lines, for example. I don't think twice about them, usually. I know a good draw is smooth and controlled -- I don't try to snatch the gun out as quickly as humanly possible, and it doesn't bother me a bit to have to exercise this bit of mental willpower.

There are all these things in practical shooting that I accept to do "right" isn't synonymous with doing "as fast as possible." So why isn't seeing like that? Drives me freakin' crazy.

Edited January 24, 2007 by boo radley

[Micah]

Have you read the Lanny Bassham book ?

Amazing book, and rather inexpensie to pick up...

Do you dryfire at all? If so, do you simulate longer distance shots? Once you get a feel for what a headshot looks (and feels) like from 50 ft in dryfire, go to the range and test it. Through practice, you will aquire a better foundation as to, as Brian put it, see what you can get away with.

That being said, the demon in the timer get the best of me from time to time...just remember to shoot your game the way you have trained.

[steel1212]

No I don't have that book. I do need to dry fire for sight picture more instead of just fast draws and first shots. This being stuck in another city for 2-3 months is really hard on the live fire practice!

[Flexmoney]

I have...does he address this particular issue, though? Beyond the one-size-fits-all solution of telling oneself, "It's like me to have visual patience," etc? I'm not trivializing; just asking.

Yeah, I think he does so...rather well. It's not the "it's like me" stuff, it is the bit about only having the ability to have one thought in our conscious mind at any given time.

What we choose as that one thought...that is what our body gives us. (everybody tends to choose speed )

Here is my question, as I have the same fundamental problem that Steel1212 does, and countless others before and after:

Why does this one specific area -- seeing the necessary sight picture, before firing the shot -- seem to require so much mental discipline?

I think it is because we are under pressure. The timer is running. Time is pressure. We assume that the way to combat time is to try to be speedy.

We have the control and discipline to slow down before running past fault lines, for example.

I might be taking this out of context, but I'll do so to make a point...

Whenever we think "slow down" we are still thinking about speed. I believe this is the route of most of the mistaken thinking on this topic. If you are of the mind that you need to slow down for certain targets...then your conscious mind is still asking your body for speed. Fast and slow are elements of speed. If you are thinking of one, then you are thinking of the other. (Do what you gotta do to wrap your head around that...fast/slow, balance, teeter-totter, ying/yang, etc.)

I know a good draw is smooth and controlled -- I don't try to snatch the gun out as quickly as humanly possible, and it doesn't bother me a bit to have to exercise this bit of mental willpower.

There...that is trust. You probably got there by proving it to yourself ?

On stages, we don't get a nice single element like the draw...something we know and are comfortable with. We have a lot of things going on. Trust takes more mental power when we have a lot to do. Especially with all the stuff we have in stages that distract us from the shooting.

How do you combat that? You get more fundamental. When things are unknown, what can you trust? You can trust what you know to be fundamental. So, what fundamental ?

There are all these things in practical shooting that I accept to do "right" isn't synonymous with doing "as fast as possible." So why isn't seeing like that?

I'm not sure where you are, but the biggest example of the bull in the china shop is this little misconceived phase that I see muttered by shooters all the time:

"I've got to slow down and shoot accurately."

At first glance, it may appear that the shooter is thinking of accurate shooting, but they aren't. They are thinking of speed.

Thinking of "slowing down" is thinking of speed. When speed is the thought, the body serves it up. You get speed based shooting.

[OK...back to the order of things]

If we can only have one thing in our conscious mind at a time, what one thing do we want in there ? This answer will be different for different people...at different times. I believe that many might benefit the good old "see what you need to see to call the shot". To further break that down...many will want to "see the front sight lift from the notch".

Your head will play tricks on you. You will want to think that doing this will slow you down. And, it may, until it becomes a habit. Then...you will trust this fundamental.

One possible thought to stick in the brain pan for a while: I have a burning interest in seeing my front sight lift.

(that isn't the end-all of it...but, it should be addressed, IMO)

[ihatepickles]

"I've got to slow down and shoot accurately."

At first glance, it may appear that the shooter is thinking of accurate shooting, but they aren't.

Ouch, this hit me like a ton of bricks. Good point.

[kevin c]

This is one of Erik Warren's drills.

Two targets: one close in and another at distance. 5 and 20 yards works. A transition is good if the range can accomodate it, 45 degrees or even more. At the beep draw and put two on the near target and then two on the far target. A's only.

Variations are two far and then two near, a magazine's worth of alternating pairs or single shots, or more targets.

The transitions you will be making will be not only the physical one of moving from one target to the next, but in the type of focus used - acceptable sight picture, trigger press, visual awareness, etc.

[boo radley]

Whenever we think "slow down" we are still thinking about speed. I believe this is the route of most of the mistaken thinking on this topic. If you are of the mind that you need to slow down for certain targets...then your conscious mind is still asking your body for speed. Fast and slow are elements of speed. If you are thinking of one, then you are thinking of the other. (Do what you gotta do to wrap your head around that...fast/slow, balance, teeter-totter, ying/yang, etc.)

Good post, Flex -- thx.

This topic is poignant to me, because I've realized just how fragile my fundamental acceptance of the needing to see really is. I remember almost exactly one year ago being determined that I would see a "type 3" kind of sight picture for classifiers, which I'd been struggling with -- the more so, since I was frustrated at being in C-class, and really wanted to move up. It was like magic -- every subsequent classifier was in the sixties, and moved into B, without ever really improving any skill-set other than making sure I saw what I needed....

Thought I'd licked this one.

Recently I was shooting a 1911 in some matches, and really struggling. I'd finish a stage, and not want to hear the score -- I *knew*. The whole time I was shooting, I'd see a rear-sight blade, with no front sight, or not even that. It really took some mental effort to settle down, and see what I needed, but by that point I was disgusted at how the previous stages had played out, and it wasn't a positive lesson.

So it's a little frustrating thinking that maybe it's just been lots of bill drills with my Glock and certain load, and familiarity with timing, that's been helping me to "see," rather than true progress.

Different recoil impulse, different grip and feel, and it all falls apart. Or maybe it could be something in a stage -- either way, I need to get back to working on it.

I'm thinking about something from a Frank Garcia class. He broke targets down into two categories: aggressive and danger. I might do the same in my walk-through while I'm programming it. I won't even think about the "aggressive" targets, beyond locating them. If I shoot them with index, or aiming with the slide, who cares. But with the *other* targets, I want a type-3 or better -- K.I.S.S, maybe.

Edited January 26, 2007 by boo radley

[BSeevers]

Its not about a book, dryfiring or some kind of mind magic. These are all wonderful and I am not saying they are bad, no I say they are necessary for great shooting. I believe you are not shooting with a correct sight picture, followthrough and trigger control. Its about seeing what you need to see to make the shot. Are you seeing the correct information? No because you are not making the shot. The books, dryfiring and mental management are tools but I think evaluate what you are doing. I think Brian mentions in his book about shooting slow fire groups at 25-50 yards. Do you do that? How about 7 yards? Try putting them all in the same hole at 7 yards. All guns will do it. Can you? Will you learn something? I believe you can.

Before you can accept a sight picture at .13 splits you have to know what one looks like and what it takes to shoot it and eventually, I believe, think nothing because the subconcious is way more powerful and the only way to do something like USPSA at high levels.

Don't overcomplicate things but don't think its all about one thing either. Its really about nothing.

I like this too.

Here's the real meat of Kyle's post;

How do you combat that? You get more fundamental. When things are unknown, what can you trust? You can trust what you know to be fundamental. So, what fundamental ?

There is more.

[Flexmoney]

(edit: good post, Bill...I was typing away while you posted.)

So it's a little frustrating thinking that maybe it's just been lots of bill drills with my Glock and certain load, and familiarity with timing, that's been helping me to "see," rather than true progress.

Different recoil impulse, different grip and feel, and it all falls apart. Or maybe it could be something in a stage -- either way, I need to get back to working on it.

For me, and this can be brutal/tough, I almost always assume I am the problem, not the gear.

I may be a bit further down the path than you are right now, but I still stumble into the weeds too.

Not to dwell on an iffy performance, but you may get something from this. At last years Targeting Education match in Michigan, I was hosing along with reckless abandon...shooting Production (40 minor) as I had shoot all year. My match was going along as you might expect...not that great.

Toward the end of the match, I was running a bit low on my (minor 40) match ammo. We had plenty of ammo in the car though...factory ammo. This same ammo had made 175pf out of my gf's gun.

So, there I am, going into a stage shooting 175pf ammo in Production. Of course, the stage is a hoser...a bunch of targets just over a low wall, which ran from one side berm to the other.

My timing should have been off. I shouldn't have had any chance of shooting to my potential with regards to splits and transitions on those close targets. But, I was able to shoot the stage fast and accurate...winning the stage.

My thought going into that stage..."I'm going to have to pay attention to what the gun/sights are doing".

Funny...how that works.

I'm thinking about something from a Frank Garcia class. He broke targets down into two categories: aggressive and danger. I might do the same in my walk-through while I'm programming it. I won't even think about the "aggressive" targets, beyond locating them. If I shoot them with index, or aiming with the slide, who cares. But with the *other* targets, I want a type-3 or better -- K.I.S.S, maybe.

I likely have in the past (might be good during development), but I don't "predetermined" the type of sight focus that I'm going to see. I want to hit a certain spot on a target. I have enough experience to know what to do to get there. More important to me is to clearly define the goal, then allow myself to see what I need to see to accomplish that goal.

BTW, I'm not sure what Frank means by aggressive targets, so I'll just share how I see some targets...

Above, I referred to certain targets as "hosers". In fact, I really don't think of them in those terms. I probably shouldn't use that term, but it is common enough that people understand the meaning.

I really like to call those easy targets "ducks". As in...ducks in a barrel. Easy to shoot. Ducks, to me, means 'free Alphas'.

Many shooters will see some close targets and crank up their speed dial to Mach 10. And, that is when you will see misses on targets at 3y...or trigger freeze...etc. (focus on speed)

There are very few stages...for very few shooters...that will have a high enough hit factor to justify dropping points on the ducks. That is why I call them free Alphas. It's all the other things in a stage that costs us time, shooting targets is where we collect the points.

I don't slow down to shoot Alphas on those ducks...I just shoot Alphas. And, I happen to like the visual feedback that I get from using the sights on those targets. It gives me a greater degree of knowing. That knowing allows me to move on to the next thing with with purpose (<<<< get that little easter egg ? For me, speed is derived from knowing...from calling the shot)

[benos]

What aggrivates me more than anything is that I know better I just don't do it.

Our best intentions usually go off with the buzzer.

My thought going into that stage..."I'm going to have to pay attention to what the gun/sights are doing".

Good one. Or like when you draw and get the crappiest grip possible. I've shot some great stages when that happened because as the gun was coming up my only thought was "You're going to have to really look at the sights on this stage."

So why don't we just do that every time? Mabye it's just too boring.

[steel1212]

Good info guys. I have yet to have a full match and the last single stage indoor match I had really through me for a loop. It had garbage bags in front of 4 targets and all I could see was the heads. I aimed so low I had a lot of mikes I would have been better shooting only the heads!

[benos]

Our best intentions usually go off with the buzzer.

Make it your only goal in life - after the buzzer and before you fire the first shot - make sure you feel calm in your forehead and center and call the first shot. If you get started good, you'll usually shoot good for the whole stage. Start "without anything in particular" - and who knows what will happen.

be

[steel1212]

Our best intentions usually go off with the buzzer.

Make it your only goal in life - after the buzzer and before you fire the first shot - make sure you feel calm in your forehead and center and call the first shot. If you get started good, you'll usually shoot good for the whole stage. Start "without anything in particular" - and who knows what will happen.

be

Thats the hardest thing for me to do is just to relax! The more I shoot the more its just fun though.

[ParaJoe]

First let me say this post should be stickied or moved somewhere that it is readily available because the amount of knowledge in this post is outstanding. Wow, great post.

I was in the same spot as you are about three or four months ago. I started reading a post simliar to this one. In this post Jake said something that stuck like glue. It's really simple and effective, so effective that it's written in the bill of my hat. "Just aim" is what he said. It was a revelation for me and it worked. I'm shooting Production for a while and my points are within the top 5 percent of every stage I shoot. The points are there, you just need to get them in the fastest time possible.

I don't know if this helps, but it's what worked for me. You will find your way as you seemed determined.

Joe

[steel1212]

I've set goals for this year and we have a couple of matches this month but next month the season starts up for real. If I can attain those goals for this year I'll be happy. When I attain those goals I'll set knew ones just to make sure I keep pushing myself though.