Who Does It Affect? It Affects Us All.

[Skydiver]

How much stuff does Angus make for CZ? I've never heard anyone bitch and moan if they buy it directly from him, nor do I think they should complain about it.

In the production line of parts: a comp hammer, a selection of main and recoil springs, sights, and grip panels. I think that's a fair representation of the things that would be hard to come-by without the CZ Custom shop putting forth the effort in making or having these made. It's not exactly a towering stack of competitive advantage. Cajun Gun Works is another popular source of quality parts.

Really? They manufacture those in house rather than purchasing them from a supplier?

So if I buy from Angus (basically just a middle man as he isn't CZ exactly and doesn't actually produce the parts) a part made for a CZ by a supplier it's legal. If I buy a part directly from a supplier then it's illegal. Seems fishy.

I think your question is the same as those brought up about the Powder River trigger that Springfield Armory offers as an OEM option from their custom shop.

My understanding is that CZ Custom puts their money forth to develop new parts which are manufactured to spec by suppliers. It's not much different than CZ-UB (The Czech manufacturer of CZ firearms) purchasing magazine tubes from a supplier and magazine springs from a different one. The magazine is a CZ mag, but they're not the actual manufacturer of the item.

(Note, I'm not 100% sure if CZ makes their own mags or not, the example is true of most companies though. I doubt there's a single firearm in the world produced solely by a single entity. Many parts come from specialized sources while being made to spec by the company that's putting their name on the side of it.)

Of the things listed above that I've underlined above, only the comp hammer could run afoul of D4 21.6, and the others are legal as per 21.4 and 21.5. The comp hammer is perfectly legal, though, because it comes an an OEM part on the first approved SP-01 (somebody correct me if I got the model wrong) making it legal as per 21.6, as well as being in their catalog and allowed by NROI ruling about aftermarket parts.

So all Springfield/Powder River needs to do is have the contentious trigger on the Springfield catalog and it should be perfectly legal as per the rulebook.

My understanding is that CZ subcontracts MecGar to make magazines. Magazines made for CZ are marked one way, while magazines sold directly by MecGar but are compatible with CZ's are marked another way.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Skydiver

[justaute]

You know the "longer" Australian-based CZ barrel is only ~4.6xx inch...vis-a-vis G34, XDM 5.25, and M&P L/Pro, what competitive advantage?

just messing with ya.... give me a 10-inch barrel and you'll still kick my a$$ everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

...One of those things clearly creates a competitive advantage, the other does not, and the one that does not is the one that is illegal.

Oh yeah, I asked DNROI about that CZ barrel issue and he said it wasn't legal. A matter of weeks later they changed the CZ Production gun list to include different barrel length options for the same model of guns (even though they don't come that way from the factory).

I'm hopeful that our new President - an experienced Production shooter - can lead a charge to simplify these issues and bring them more in line with common sense.

[beltjones]

You know the "longer" Australian-based CZ barrel is only ~4.6xx inch...vis-a-vis G34, XDM 5.25, and M&P L/Pro, what competitive advantage?

just messing with ya.... give me a 10-inch barrel and you'll still kick my a$$ everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

...One of those things clearly creates a competitive advantage, the other does not, and the one that does not is the one that is illegal.

Oh yeah, I asked DNROI about that CZ barrel issue and he said it wasn't legal. A matter of weeks later they changed the CZ Production gun list to include different barrel length options for the same model of guns (even though they don't come that way from the factory).

I'm hopeful that our new President - an experienced Production shooter - can lead a charge to simplify these issues and bring them more in line with common sense.

Ha. My issue isn't that the barrel is a meaningful advantage over the G34 or other similar pistol (though it is a tiny advantage over a stock barrel). It's that the rules aren't exactly consistent. I mean, how can the rules specify that the barrels be the same length and contour as the original for every pistol except CZ? It doesn't make sense. And I know that parts are exchangeable between similar makes as long as both are on the approved list - but barrels are an exception to that, otherwise I could put a G34 barrel in a G17 slide (not that I would want to do that). The Australian Shadow and the Shadow are different models (just like the Shadow T black and Shadow T Duo-tone are different models), so except for the fact that the BoD and / or DNROI goofed I can't see how swapping barrels of different lengths can be legal. When I consider that the Australian Shadow isn't even on the list of approved guns it makes my head nearly explode. I also like how there is a note at the bottom of the CZ table in the approved gun list stating that "some guns come with a 4.80" barrel..." Really? Do they? I defy someone to name two CZ pistols that have that barrel length. Even if we assume that 4.8 is a typo, and they meant 4.925" as specified on www.czcustom.com, there STILL isn't a single gun on the approved list with that barrel length, let alone two.

[Steve Anderson]

"All men think they are great at 3 things: Shooting and driving are 2 of them."

Our women know what the other one is.

or isn't.

[justaute]

I got you... you're preaching to the choir, brutha. Rules should be consistently applied -- period. Given the 3# slippery slope, the next decision may be same front/rear-sight distance, same grip angle, no adjustable sight, no paint in the magwell (oh wait, that's done), or who-knows-what. In the end, to some extent -- assuming sufficient customer force -- the gun manufacturers will produce "competition" guns (e.g. CZ Shadow/Target, G34, M&P Pro, XDM 5.25, etc.). Hey, to me, as a gun-match competitor/gamer -- yes, I'm a competitor/gamer, that's a good thing -- as long as the competition's governing body can competently manage.

Bottom-line, different gun platforms have different advantages (e.g. front/rear sight distance, weight, balance, grip, etc.) -- objective, subjective, and perceived -- and when a shooter picks a platform, it is his/her responsibility to learn how to compete with it. When I'm sparring with a competitor, I don't complain, within reasonable context, about their being too tall (longer reach), too short (lower center of gravity), or too thin (maybe quicker).

Even the barrel length measurement isn't consistent. "Normal" CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow barrels have a stated length of 4.6", but that's measured from the end/bottom of ramp to muzzle, not from the breech-face. Oh well. This is a topic for another day.

You know the "longer" Australian-based CZ barrel is only ~4.6xx inch...vis-a-vis G34, XDM 5.25, and M&P L/Pro, what competitive advantage?

just messing with ya.... give me a 10-inch barrel and you'll still kick my a$$ everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

...One of those things clearly creates a competitive advantage, the other does not, and the one that does not is the one that is illegal.

Oh yeah, I asked DNROI about that CZ barrel issue and he said it wasn't legal. A matter of weeks later they changed the CZ Production gun list to include different barrel length options for the same model of guns (even though they don't come that way from the factory).

I'm hopeful that our new President - an experienced Production shooter - can lead a charge to simplify these issues and bring them more in line with common sense.

Ha. My issue isn't that the barrel is a meaningful advantage over the G34 or other similar pistol (though it is a tiny advantage over a stock barrel). It's that the rules aren't exactly consistent. I mean, how can the rules specify that the barrels be the same length and contour as the original for every pistol except CZ? It doesn't make sense. And I know that parts are exchangeable between similar makes as long as both are on the approved list - but barrels are an exception to that, otherwise I could put a G34 barrel in a G17 slide (not that I would want to do that). The Australian Shadow and the Shadow are different models (just like the Shadow T black and Shadow T Duo-tone are different models), so except for the fact that the BoD and / or DNROI goofed I can't see how swapping barrels of different lengths can be legal. When I consider that the Australian Shadow isn't even on the list of approved guns it makes my head nearly explode. I also like how there is a note at the bottom of the CZ table in the approved gun list stating that "some guns come with a 4.80" barrel..." Really? Do they? I defy someone to name two CZ pistols that have that barrel length. Even if we assume that 4.8 is a typo, and they meant 4.925" as specified on www.czcustom.com, there STILL isn't a single gun on the approved list with that barrel length, let alone two.

Edited December 29, 2011 by justaute

[twodownzero]

I'm also certain that in my Section, at the local level, L10 fills a needed void, by making the sport more inclusive for folks who want to give it a try with a gun they already own.....

Guns that are already legal in Production. In fact, my first USPSA match, I shot a .45 in Production division. This is not a reason for L-10. And, I might add, that a .45 shot out of a paddle holster is no more competitive in L-10 (against single actions drawn from race holsters) than it is in Production (against minor pf guns).

L-10 has outlived its usefulness and should have been abolished years ago. The ban ended over 7 years ago. Those shooting it with single stacks can change holsters and get some 8 round mags. Those shooting it with double stacks, time to join the big boys in limited (to include the Glock shooters).

[Skydiver]

I'm also certain that in my Section, at the local level, L10 fills a needed void, by making the sport more inclusive for folks who want to give it a try with a gun they already own.....

Guns that are already legal in Production. In fact, my first USPSA match, I shot a .45 in Production division. This is not a reason for L-10. And, I might add, that a .45 shot out of a paddle holster is no more competitive in L-10 (against single actions drawn from race holsters) than it is in Production (against minor pf guns).

L-10 has outlived its usefulness and should have been abolished years ago. The ban ended over 7 years ago. Those shooting it with single stacks can change holsters and get some 8 round mags. Those shooting it with double stacks, time to join the big boys in limited (to include the Glock shooters).

And those shooting L10 with double stack .45? Trade the gun in for a .40, or buy a .40 top end and magazines and play in Limited?

[beltjones]

I got you... you're preaching to the choir, brutha. Rules should be consistently applied -- period. Given the 3# slippery slope, the next decision may be same front/rear-sight distance, same grip angle, no adjustable sight, no paint in the magwell (oh wait, that's done), or who-knows-what. In the end, to some extent -- assuming sufficient customer force -- the gun manufacturers will produce "competition" guns (e.g. CZ Shadow/Target, G34, M&P Pro, XDM 5.25, etc.). Hey, to me, as a gun-match competitor/gamer -- yes, I'm a competitor/gamer, that's a good thing -- as long as the competition's governing body can competently manage.

Bottom-line, different gun platforms have different advantages (e.g. front/rear sight distance, weight, balance, grip, etc.) -- objective, subjective, and perceived -- and when a shooter picks a platform, it is his/her responsibility to learn how to compete with it. When I'm sparring with a competitor, I don't complain, within reasonable context, about their being too tall (longer reach), too short (lower center of gravity), or too thin (maybe quicker).

Even the barrel length measurement isn't consistent. "Normal" CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow barrels have a stated length of 4.6", but that's measured from the end/bottom of ramp to muzzle, not from the breech-face. Oh well. This is a topic for another day.

Yeah, I'm with you. I like that the manufacturers produce competition-oriented Production guns - it's almost like they're trying to make their out-of-the-box products better for consumers somehow (in a market where sales volume is dominated by Hi-Point and Kel-Tec that's an unusual thing). If the Australian Shadow were readily available here, and if it were on the list, I would be psyched for people to shoot them.

I also don't get how chrono is supposed to test for this stuff. Given that CZ's numbers are from crown to feed ramp, instead of from crown to breechface, and considering that "some guns come with 4.80" barrels..." how could a chrono man ever know whether or not the gun was legal? He would have to field strip the gun to measure the barrel, then he would have to know which guns come with 4.8" barrels (though here is a hint: none of them on the list). It's an impossible-to-police situation that DNROI / BoD created, and yet they have a problem with someone buying a trigger from the same supplier that the factory uses? Huh?

[jar]

L-10 has outlived its usefulness and should have been abolished years ago. The ban ended over 7 years ago. Those shooting it with single stacks can change holsters and get some 8 round mags. Those shooting it with double stacks, time to join the big boys in limited (to include the Glock shooters).

What about those with single stacks that aren't 1911s?

[Loves2Shoot]

How much stuff does Angus make for CZ? I've never heard anyone bitch and moan if they buy it directly from him, nor do I think they should complain about it.

In the production line of parts: a comp hammer, a selection of main and recoil springs, sights, and grip panels. I think that's a fair representation of the things that would be hard to come-by without the CZ Custom shop putting forth the effort in making or having these made. It's not exactly a towering stack of competitive advantage. Cajun Gun Works is another popular source of quality parts.

Really? They manufacture those in house rather than purchasing them from a supplier?

So if I buy from Angus (basically just a middle man as he isn't CZ exactly and doesn't actually produce the parts) a part made for a CZ by a supplier it's legal. If I buy a part directly from a supplier then it's illegal. Seems fishy.

I think your question is the same as those brought up about the Powder River trigger that Springfield Armory offers as an OEM option from their custom shop.

My understanding is that CZ Custom puts their money forth to develop new parts which are manufactured to spec by suppliers.

More common is an aftermarket manufacturer makes a part and sends it to the manufacturer and then they buy the parts.

[justaute]

FWIW... the CZ "comp" hammer is available for purchase on CZ's czub.cz website. Not sure who actually manufactures it. I thought I had read a posting by Angus that the comp hammer is actually produced by CZ. But, who did the R&D of it and for who purpose? Competition? How dare they?

[TGO]

How much stuff does Angus make for CZ? I've never heard anyone bitch and moan if they buy it directly from him, nor do I think they should complain about it.

In the production line of parts: a comp hammer, a selection of main and recoil springs, sights, and grip panels. I think that's a fair representation of the things that would be hard to come-by without the CZ Custom shop putting forth the effort in making or having these made. It's not exactly a towering stack of competitive advantage. Cajun Gun Works is another popular source of quality parts.

Really? They manufacture those in house rather than purchasing them from a supplier?

So if I buy from Angus (basically just a middle man as he isn't CZ exactly and doesn't actually produce the parts) a part made for a CZ by a supplier it's legal. If I buy a part directly from a supplier then it's illegal. Seems fishy.

I think your question is the same as those brought up about the Powder River trigger that Springfield Armory offers as an OEM option from their custom shop.

My understanding is that CZ Custom puts their money forth to develop new parts which are manufactured to spec by suppliers.

More common is an aftermarket manufacturer makes a part and sends it to the manufacturer and then they buy the parts.

I agree. Who cares who makes it for the factory? If he factory uses or sells it. It is obviously a factory approved part!

You might be surprised how many a parts in some guns are sourced by outside vendors. I'm not sure the wood grips for a 1911 are produced by anyone except outside vendors. If the CZ custom shop makes a part that CZ USA sells, what's wrong with that?

Besides, I like Angus and want all you CZ shooters to buy stuff from him.

Rob

[ima45dv8]

You might be surprised how many a parts in some guns are sourced by outside vendors.

I doubt I would.

It's my understanding that Wilson, Brown and a number of other innovators make good coin as OEMs by selling their parts to other folks for sale as their own. If the price is right they don't care whose name is etched on it. Does anyone think Doug Koenig actually manufactures the parts sold under his name?

If a manufacturer like SA buys parts under their name from an OEM, I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to do the same under USPSA rules.

It's the same part, after all.