Who Does It Affect? It Affects Us All.

[vluc]

"First they came for the Single Stack shooters, and I did not speak out - because I did not shoot Single Stack. Then they came for the Production shooters, and I did not speak out - because I did not shoot Production. Then they came for the Stage Designers, and I did not speak out - because I did not design stages. Then they came for the Division important to me - and there was no one left to speak for me."

Edited January 2, 2007 by vluc

[edwin garcia]

would you care to elaborate?

[vluc]

I was feeling a bit philosophical when I paraphrased that quote.

I hope it does not become reflective of USPSA membership. Hundreds, no thousands of people visit here, are members or just lurk and read. Changes are being proposed that will affect every Division and every class of shooter - some positive, some negative.

My intent was to hopefully get them to realize that just because he/she may not shoot in an affected Division, it does not mean that they will be unaffected. Because they do not use a certain holster does not mean they will not be affected, because they do not design stages or have an interest in the working behind the scenes in putting on a match does not mean their ability to be able to shoot those matches will not be impacted in the future.

I think if we just let a few people lead the charge, without knowing they have support and encouragement, we begin to lose momentum and our ability to influence that change. To me, there is no reason why any member who asks a question about the rule changes or what is going on on this forum should not be registered and asking that very same question or making that same comment over at the USPSA Forum pages.

[Chris Keen]

Vluc, I know quite a few people who DO shoot these divisions (mostly Production) and still I DONT hear any comments from them regarding the proposed 2008 rules.

I guess that means we wont hear any moaning / complaining in 2008, right ???

[mcb]

I read the complete change summary document and then looked up many of the changed rules and to be honest did not see anything that would really change the way I shoot. I shoot L-10 and Revolver and none of the rule changes seemed to change the equipment or way I shoot those two divisions. Maybe I have missed something.

mcb

[vluc]

Vluc, I know quite a few people who DO shoot these divisions (mostly Production) and still I DONT hear any comments from them regarding the proposed 2008 rules.

I guess that means we wont hear any moaning / complaining in 2008, right ???

Chris, it's the moaning/complaining after they realize they could have made a difference had they only spoken up that bothers me.

mcb, glad nothing affects you. Don't just read the change summary, read the proposed handbook as well. Never hurts to reacquaint. If you found everything to your liking, I still recommend you go to the USPSA forum and post that. Commentary does not have to be what we don't like, it should also address what we do like, and it shows you took the time to read it and chose to get involved by posting.

[ihatepickles]

I read the complete change summary document and then looked up many of the changed rules and to be honest did not see anything that would really change the way I shoot. I shoot L-10 and Revolver and none of the rule changes seemed to change the equipment or way I shoot those two divisions. Maybe I have missed something.

mcb

Do you have a bull barrel in your L-10 gun? The new rules say you can't use a barrel of a different contour than the "factory standard", whatever that is. For me, this means my rebuilt Colt Series 70 isn't legal for L-10 because Colt didn't build the Series 70 with a bull barrel.

The distance from your belt to gear will probably effect you. Do you use Shoot-the-Moons and ever hang the moonclips from the front lip of the holder rather than fully seated on the post? Are all of your holsters less than 1 5/8" from the inside surface of the outer belt to your guns?

Even Open shooters will be making changes in the 2008 rulebook unless we pull together and reject these rules loudly. "I'm sure glad I shoot Open with all of the rule changes..." no longer applies.

[JFD]

The change summary document doesn't really tell you nearly as much as reading the proposed rules.

In many cases my thought has been "what the hell were they thinking?".

Freestyle is under attack and affects everyone. It appears there's a faction who want us to be shooting a watered down IDPA, as some of the changes lean in that direction quite a bit.

I know a bunch of folks with bull barrels in guns that didn't come with them. So far I've seen none of them post at USPSA. I was thinking about putting a bull barrel in my Para, but I think I'll hold off for now.

Certain members of the BOD are flip-flopping as well, and it's good to know where your elected representatives stand.

We need a LOT of folks posting about the rules in the USPSA forum. Otherwise the BOD might think the folks posting over there are just the vocal minority. This is assuming the BOD is really going to pay any attention to what we're saying anyway. Hard to tell right now.

[BSeevers]

I am posting and care but frankly that forum makes watching paint drying seem like a night with Eva Longoria.

[Chris Keen]

Ditto.

But, that's a supportive ditto!

[freeidaho]

We need a LOT of folks posting about the rules in the USPSA forum.

One suggestion. If a new topic were started here or elsewhere for each of the offending changes, I suspect that some useful discussion would ensue.

Just at thought ! ! !

Ken Reed

[edwin garcia]

The distance from your belt to gear will probably effect you. Do you use Shoot-the-Moons and ever hang the moonclips from the front lip of the holder rather than fully seated on the post? Are all of your holsters less than 1 5/8" from the inside surface of the outer belt to your guns?

Even Open shooters will be making changes in the 2008 rulebook unless we pull together and reject these rules loudly. "I'm sure glad I shoot Open with all of the rule changes..." no longer applies.

My equipment for Open still's OK(within the proposed max distance). But I agree it's not the point.

Everyone should be vigillant in these matter as it affects the soul of practical shooting.

I will be posting my comment on the USPSA forum as you all suggested and I thank veryone in keeping this issue on top of our priorities.

I suggest you lurkers do the same

[Gregory_k]

as posted over there.

100% of my production gear will be illegal, 50% of that gear can not be used in any other div. as the magazine distance is the same for all divisions.

[raz-0]

Vluc, I know quite a few people who DO shoot these divisions (mostly Production) and still I DONT hear any comments from them regarding the proposed 2008 rules.

I guess that means we wont hear any moaning / complaining in 2008, right ???

You, sir, are a funny man.

[GentlemanJim]

Ok I am ignorant .

Please tell me where I can look at these new rules.

lost in space...Jim

[BritinUSA]

Draft rules

[uscbigdawg]

I'll be reading these this afternoon. Sounds pretty stupid so far. The harm will be pissing off the core of the sport (i.e. those that have been doing it forever and are now being told their equipment is illegal because of some generic definition).

This WILL manifest itself in folks not renewing their membership and just shooting at the club level.

Rich

[BritinUSA]

This WILL manifest itself in folks not renewing their membership and just shooting at the club level.

That all depends on whether the new rules are accepted. They are only draft rules and the BOD is VERY OPEN to suggestions. This is why I (and others) are encouraging people to go to the USPSA forum to let the BOD know how you feel and offer alternatives if applicable.

[EricBudd]

I read the complete change summary document and then looked up many of the changed rules and to be honest did not see anything that would really change the way I shoot. I shoot L-10 and Revolver and none of the rule changes seemed to change the equipment or way I shoot those two divisions. Maybe I have missed something.

mcb

That is because L10 survived by 1 vote (after a bit of an uproar). Get involved. Next time you might not be so lucky.

[Lee Bell]

I'll be reading these this afternoon. Sounds pretty stupid so far. The harm will be pissing off the core of the sport (i.e. those that have been doing it forever and are now being told their equipment is illegal because of some generic definition).

This WILL manifest itself in folks not renewing their membership and just shooting at the club level.

Rich

Those that have been doing it forever, were shooting single stack .45s with 7 round magazines, iron sights and 5 lb trigger pulls when the new crowd came along and changed the rules in ways that made their equipment obsolete.

While I understand your frustration at changes that disadvantage you, I hope you'll understand my lack of sympathy. You're not the first to experience the problem, by a couple of decades.

Now I'll go clean my stock series 70 Government Model .45. I've got a match tonight.

Lee

PS: Thanks to those that proposed the Single Stack Division. It's nice to know someone still cares about us old guys.

I read the complete change summary document and then looked up many of the changed rules and to be honest did not see anything that would really change the way I shoot. I shoot L-10 and Revolver and none of the rule changes seemed to change the equipment or way I shoot those two divisions. Maybe I have missed something.

mcb

That is because L10 survived by 1 vote (after a bit of an uproar). Get involved. Next time you might not be so lucky.

Not to worry. You L-10 shooters will fit right in with us Single Stack shooters. Hopefully, the reverse is true. I just ordered 8 10 round .45 magazines for my .45 . . . just in case.

Lee

[tightloop]

Vluc, I know quite a few people who DO shoot these divisions (mostly Production) and still I DONT hear any comments from them regarding the proposed 2008 rules.

I guess that means we wont hear any moaning / complaining in 2008, right ???

Chris, it's the moaning/complaining after they realize they could have made a difference had they only spoken up that bothers me.

mcb, glad nothing affects you. Don't just read the change summary, read the proposed handbook as well. Never hurts to reacquaint. If you found everything to your liking, I still recommend you go to the USPSA forum and post that. Commentary does not have to be what we don't like, it should also address what we do like, and it shows you took the time to read it and chose to get involved by posting.

looks like a microcosym of what I feel is wrong with the country at this point in time...no complaining till after the fact and they still did not get involved....I do not understantdthe apathy.....

[JFD]

I took an informal poll on my squad full of L-10 newbies last week. While 1 newbie was shooting the 1911 division and happy to keep doing it, the rest had no use for PSSD and said they'd rather shoot their SS guns in Limited.

None of these guys had any idea L-10 is under "attack", which I thought was pitiful until I realized they might not be USPSA members.

There was no "buzz" whatsoever that I could see at the last match concerning the proposed rules.

Thanks to CB trying to kill L-10, we now have another candidate for the Area 6 AD position. I'll be campaigning heavily at the next match since I don't think most USPSA members pay any attention to what's going on with the sport. The number of folks voting in elections seems to support that. If we can attach some names to the most unpopular of the new rules, especially to the related "kill L-10" effort, I believe it will not be too difficult to get rid of these BOD members. Of course someone has to be willing to run against them.

I've got to check out the USPSA forum this week to see what's happening on all the discussions, especially any comments from BOD members concerning the L-10 poll. It's like watching paint dry, but it's the only way to know what's happening.

So far, other than typos and plain old mistakes, I haven't gotten the feeling the participating BOD members are paying heed to the forum feedback. Hopefully I'll see a change in the week or so since I last checked.

I think any rules discussions here are pretty much a waste of time except to get people fired up enough to post on the USPSA forums.

[j2fast]

If I didn't hit this forum pretty much everyday I would have no idea that the provisional rules were even posted for review or that we could comment about them on the USPSA Forums.

Why hasn't the USPSA notified ALL members through a mailing or if cost is an issue at least though email???

Hmm, sounds like a question for the forum the BOD is "guaranteed" to read....

Edited January 11, 2007 by j2fast

[ampleworks]

I've yet to find a scale that measures my XD's trigger the same every time. One says 5 the other says 3 and another says 1.5. This minimum trigger pull thing is going to be a NIGHTMARE to get someone to accurately measure your gun.

I'll claim Production until someone throws me into Open.

[uscbigdawg]

I'll be reading these this afternoon. Sounds pretty stupid so far. The harm will be pissing off the core of the sport (i.e. those that have been doing it forever and are now being told their equipment is illegal because of some generic definition).

This WILL manifest itself in folks not renewing their membership and just shooting at the club level.

Rich

Those that have been doing it forever, were shooting single stack .45s with 7 round magazines, iron sights and 5 lb trigger pulls when the new crowd came along and changed the rules in ways that made their equipment obsolete.

While I understand your frustration at changes that disadvantage you, I hope you'll understand my lack of sympathy. You're not the first to experience the problem, by a couple of decades.

Now I'll go clean my stock series 70 Government Model .45. I've got a match tonight.

Lee

PS: Thanks to those that proposed the Single Stack Division. It's nice to know someone still cares about us old guys.

Nothing like old folks thinking that they know everything about everyone on these boards. I started this sport with a singlestack SA 1911 in .45 with a couple of 10 round mags in Limited Division. Then, there were two choices. Limited and Open. I didn't start shooting Open until 2000 (or maybe '01...can't remember) and even up 'til then I only shot Limited.

Don't presume that you know how people started and have participated in this sport.

Still haven't had a chance to read the provisional rules, but from the first glance, they're pretty retarded. They seem to be attempting to address problems that don't exist. Unfortunately it seems USPSA might be marching a little too far down the road of IPSC and like I said, will probably manifest itself in either killing the sport or at least membership not renewing and shooting 'USPSA-style' matches at the club level.

Rich