gazda4 Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 DID A SEARCH CAN`T FIND ANY INFO. ON THIS. WHAT CAUSES A BULLET TO TUMBLE, ONLY DOES IT WITH MAJOR LOADS I`M USING RAINIER 9/ 124.GR. FP @ 1350 PLUS ' OUT OF 20 RDS. MAYBE 4/6 OR MORE WILL TUMBLE. ANY THOUGHTS ?? THANKS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 (edited) Gazda4, Unlock your caps button. All caps is kinda like YELLING at someone. Although I'm not certain, Rainier bullets are plated. Someone with greater knowledge will pipe in shortly, but there have been issues with too much crimp cutting through the plating which would then tend to peel off the bullet as it left the barrel, much like a sabot round but in a much less accurate way.. Good luck dj Edited December 28, 2006 by dajarrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Gazda, It's your bullet selection. Switch to another non-plated bullet and the problem should go away. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazda4 Posted December 28, 2006 Author Share Posted December 28, 2006 Gazda, It's your bullet selection. Switch to another non-plated bullet and the problem should go away. Erik Gazda, It's your bullet selection. Switch to another non-plated bullet and the problem should go away. Erik wondering why rainer would be any worse or better than anothe bullet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 wondering why rainer would be any worse or better than anothe bullet Most bullets used at that speed are jacketed. The jacketing material is (approx values here) probably about .010" thick. Plated bullets are just that. They have a thin plating on them that is about ~.001-.002" thick. The jacketed bullets can stand most any crimp without cutting through the material, but if you crimp a plated bullet too much, you will press through the plating, causing a separation of the plating material and the lead. As far as I'm familiar with, theonly two companies that make plated are Rainier and Berry's. There may be more, but most non-exposed lead bullets are jacketed. FWIW dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazda4 Posted December 28, 2006 Author Share Posted December 28, 2006 the plating does not appear to be peeling off. i have shot many rds. into 5 ' of cardboard & recovered bullets, the plating is intact, also have shot many thru plywood & into same cardboard altho a little deformed, no plating seperation. i have also tried several crimps from ring on bullet to no crimp, no difference. also have tried different powders & oal`s from 1.170 to 1.110, no difference, new brass to mxd. range brass. some tumble & some don`t ?? , also the bullet is very inaccurate from 10 yds. farther back you go the worse it gets. any ideas.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin garcia Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 what's your barre twist, barrel condition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Gazda, It's your bullet selection. Switch to another non-plated bullet and the problem should go away. Erik Hate to admit it, but its an issue limited to the plated bullets or how they are loaded (BTW - did you know the Speer Gold Dot and the Federal "Fusion" rifle ammo are electroplated?). If you have another gun shooting minor, save the bullets for lower velocity work. Also consider less crimp or a slower powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazda4 Posted December 28, 2006 Author Share Posted December 28, 2006 barrel twist, do not know.the gun is 5 mths. old sti trubor have tried hs6, true blue, silhoutte, hs7 7625,power pistol, no difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 16 years ago this was a new problem. even the groups would go to 2 feet in the 'new' 40 caliber. It was all related to crimp, even Ranner psoted a letter about it after we figured it out . If you contact Gilbert at Berry , or the Rannier they will tell you the bullet will not handel that speed, and or a crimp that leaves even a light ring on the bullet. I remember paying under $30 per thousand for Berry bullets, The problem is not new, just most of the IPSC shooters could not use them for the same problem you are having. IF you can make it work you will be the first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Its the bullets brand, switch to jacketed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue edge Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 the plating does not appear to be peeling off. i have shot many rds. into 5 ' of cardboard & recovered bullets, the plating is intact, also have shot many thru plywood & into same cardboard altho a little deformed, no plating seperation. i have also tried several crimps from ring on bullet to no crimp, no difference. also have tried different powders & oal`s from 1.170 to 1.110, no difference, new brass to mxd. range brass. some tumble & some don`t ?? , also the bullet is very inaccurate from 10 yds. farther back you go the worse it gets. any ideas.. Try 50 rounds from someone that shoots jacketed and better yet jhp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 the plating does not appear to be peeling off. i have shot many rds. into 5 ' of cardboard & recovered bullets, the plating is intact, also have shot many thru plywood & into same cardboard altho a little deformed, no plating seperation. i have also tried several crimps from ring on bullet to no crimp, no difference. also have tried different powders & oal`s from 1.170 to 1.110, no difference, new brass to mxd. range brass. some tumble & some don`t ?? , also the bullet is very inaccurate from 10 yds. farther back you go the worse it gets. any ideas.. I use Rainier and love them. Since I'm using a heavier bullet my speeds are slower. I shoot 135gr just under 1300fps. I loaded some up that was pushing 1350 and they did the exact same thing. I was getting weird holes and the accuracy was horrible. Rainer states you shouldn't push the bullets more than 1250fps or you will run into problems. I just went and checked Rainiers bullet list and they go from 9mm 124's to 9mm 147's. Not sure what to tell you, you could try the 147's. I know Steve Anderson shot 147 for a long time, you could ask him. You also could give Berry's Bullets a try. My guess is with the 9mm you pushing the bullet so fast that your going to have to use something that is jacketed and can handle the speed. Flyin40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazda4 Posted December 28, 2006 Author Share Posted December 28, 2006 know of any major load data for the 147`s.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sestock Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 What type of barrel and comp are you using? Is the gun new? Is the comp, threaded, pressed on or a one piece barrel/comp unit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 know of any major load data for the 147`s.. Give Steve Anderson a PM. I'm pretty sure he used them for a couple of yrs. I think he switched to 124's. Flyin40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazda4 Posted December 29, 2006 Author Share Posted December 29, 2006 What type of barrel and comp are you using? Is the gun new? Is the comp, threaded, pressed on or a one piece barrel/comp unit? it is a sti trubor { factory gun } 5 mths. old. barrel & comp are one piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 (edited) have tried hs6, true blue, silhouette, hs7, 7625, power pistol I've used 4 of the 6 powders that you listed with Montana Gold bullets in 9-major and they all work great. Your barrel and comp are all one piece of steel. Change to a jacketed bullet like the others have said and you will be good to go. Edited December 29, 2006 by .40AET Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Precision Designs Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Rainier and Berry bullets are made by swaging "soft" lead wire cuttings, after which they are electroplated. This pretty much akin to "casehardening" low carbon steel. The results are similar, sort of. But ... when you wear or cut through that "thin" COATING, in either case you expose the "soft" nature of its innards, with varying results. The thin coating in the plated bullets is usually not strong enough to encapsulate/hold away from the rear push and centrifugal forces affecting the overall shape of the bullet as it is "jammed" into the rifling and pushed through. If you could recover some bullets that were not deformed from impact, you would notice that their shape will be very often lopsided from the pressures exerted. Drive the same bullets at lower speed and the "physics" will change to be within the design parameters. A quick call to the manufacturer will provide you with some conservative guidelines. I too, have experimented with the Rainier .355 diameter plated bullets in both 115 and 124 grs. in various Open IPSC race guns. One thing I noticed which was peculiar was "smoke" (from lead vapors???) and compensator fouling residue containing lead (??). Accuracy especially suffered with "major" loads and the 115's. With the 124's I got a lot of "flyers". For "steel" loads in Minor Power Factor there seems to be no problem with these plated bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 ...made by swaging "soft" lead wire cuttings, after which they are electroplated... ...not strong enough to encapsulate/hold away from the rear push and centrifugal forces affecting the overall shape of the bullet as it is "jammed" into the rifling and pushed through... Is that why "hard cast" bullets are OK for big bore, high velocity magnum loads? The cast bullets are harder? Funny, since I recently saw a major manufacturer tout their swaged bullets as being very hard because of the swaging. The claim was also that they were more uniform than cast. I've never swaged, cast or plated anything, so what do I know? I just shoot the stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sestock Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 It may not be the bullets but rather a bad crown on the barrel or the bullets may be hitting the comp. I would have a reliable gunsmith check it out. Also call STI and tell them what the probelm is they may have a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allgoodhits Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 DID A SEARCH CAN`T FIND ANY INFO. ON THIS.WHAT CAUSES A BULLET TO TUMBLE, ONLY DOES IT WITH MAJOR LOADS I`M USING RAINIER 9/ 124.GR. FP @ 1350 PLUS ' OUT OF 20 RDS. MAYBE 4/6 OR MORE WILL TUMBLE. ANY THOUGHTS ?? THANKS Bullets are tumbling because they are no longer or never were stabilized. Why are they not stabilized? Wrong weight bullet or wrong twist rate for that velocity combination, or Bad or damaged bullet due to overcrimping, bad base or other issue, or Poor or damaged barrel or crown, or Misaligned comp or something intering with bullets flight after it leaves rifling. .... can't think of other causes at the moment. Try your ammo in some other gun, if bad result then ammo is likely bad. If result is good, then try slowing doen the load a little, try different powder, adjust (reduce crimp) and try again. Try known quality ammo in your gun. If bad result, then probelm is likely with your gun. You did mention that lower PF loads do not cause the problem. You did not specify, whether the same bullets running slower are OK. If that is the case then your selected bullets do not like running that fast out of your gun. MAYBE, a different powder may help but I think it is a bullet running too fast for that gun. Either way you have to eliminate variables one at a time and keep trying. Be Safe, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazda4 Posted December 30, 2006 Author Share Posted December 30, 2006 took your advise & tried another brand of bullet, no problem works great. many thank yous to all for the infomation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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