Uspsa/icore Skills?

[Bill Nesbitt]

I've never shot an ICORE match but it looks like accuracy demands are higher than in USPSA.

I would like to also add any other action pistol sport including IDPA, Bianchi, Steel, Bowling Pins, etc.

I am asking the shooters who participate in more than one sport, how do you approach the stages. Do you shoot them the same or differently? If differently, then how and why?

I don't want this to degrade into a "my sport is better than your sport" please.

The reason I am asking this. I shoot mostly IDPA because that is what is available to me locally. When I get a chance to shoot USPSA I shoot the stages the same way I shoot IDPA except I don't use cover. When I went to the USPSA Revolver Nationals this year I shot the way I always have and got my butt handed to me. It seemed I was always a few seconds behind everybody else. I had good points. Except for those ^%$@$%&^* MaxTraps. I think they are a bubble gum target.

I'm just wondering how others handle the difference in scoring etc.

[underlug]

I've never shot an ICORE match but it looks like accuracy demands are higher than in USPSA.

I would like to also add any other action pistol sport including IDPA, Bianchi, Steel, Bowling Pins, etc.

I am asking the shooters who participate in more than one sport, how do you approach the stages. Do you shoot them the same or differently? If differently, then how and why?

I don't want this to degrade into a "my sport is better than your sport" please.

The reason I am asking this. I shoot mostly IDPA because that is what is available to me locally. When I get a chance to shoot USPSA I shoot the stages the same way I shoot IDPA except I don't use cover. When I went to the USPSA Revolver Nationals this year I shot the way I always have and got my butt handed to me. It seemed I was always a few seconds behind everybody else. I had good points. Except for those ^%$@$%&^* MaxTraps. I think they are a bubble gum target.

I'm just wondering how others handle the difference in scoring etc.

I do not shoot IDPA

USPSA to me is a sport you shoot fast, accurately

ICORE is a sport you shoot accurately, fast.

Some can outrun a USPSA course because of the way it is scored. You divide your points by the time to get your hit factor and then that hit factor is compared to other hit factors. It simply favors speed.

ICORE is naked time plus scoring. Generally, anything other than an A hit adds time to your score directly (at least one second). There is rarely a time when a non A hit fast is better than taking the extra couple of tenths of a second to score the A. Also, the A

scoring area is less generous. It is closer to IDPA as I understand it.

They are all great games with strengths and weaknesses

Edited December 24, 2006 by underlug

[Waltermitty]

I shoot USPSA, ICORE and Steel Challenge.

USPSA is my home sport. It's a fun game and that's what I'm looking for. The emphasis is on speed and that's just fine. My greatest enjoyment is breaking down the stage and working to shoot it as quickly and smoothly as I can.

ICORE is my second most active sport. Fast is fine but the penalties add up real fast. Oddly enough, I haven't shot as well in ICORE as I did in my first classifier match, before I better understood the scoring; now I think I'm going too slow. ICORE course design rules (must be 6 rounds per array) remove much of the course breakdown challenge, which in some ways make it less fun (guess I'm a glutton for punishment).

Steel Challenge is pure speed. All courses are very very simple. Each course is run 5 times with the worst run thrown out. The main thing I get from SC is learning to hit targets while swinging through them...very beneficial to the other games.

I don't shoot the other games enough to claim to shoot them.

[hopalong]

Hi Bill great question!

I am the opposite of you, I shoot 6-10 USPSA matches to the 1 or 2 IDPA matches so I might can give you another perspective.

It all for me boils down to the scoring..........Hit factor vs. Time plus (IDPA, ICORE)

I can shoot as accurately as the next guy (or gal) so the accurate part doen't fall into play (MUCH).

A Hit factor stage (USPSA) that is worth 100 points shot in 10 seconds is a 10 hitfactor stage (100/10=10) so keeping that in mind if I can now make that 10 second run a 9 and even drop 10 extra points it is still a 10 hitfactor stage....(90/9=10) so speed can be a good thing, with just a little less accuracy .

Now on time plus you can throw that all away and start over....

10 seconds with no points down is still 10, but 9 seconds with 10 points down is now 9 1/2 seconds (IDPA) so you only gained half a second but chanced losing much more. If you had taken .10 seconds longer to make sure of those shots (-10) and they were all 1 down you would still have ended up with a 9 1/2, but you took away the chance for the occasional -3 by doing so. (I hope you see what I'm trying to say)

The skills used in ICORE and USPSA are for the most part identical except the scoring zone and thus the acceptable sight picture........which usually causes me to aim too much and waist time making sure that sight picture I am seeing really is what I want instead of just shooting when the sight picture is acceptable......and pretty much IDPA too, aside the cover and reloading rules.

Keep shooting both, they are both good and teach good things. remember the hit factor thing at the USPSA matches though.

Good luck, remember USPSA/IPSC.......Speed AND Accuracy........ICORE/IDPA Accuracy AND Speed.........looks the same, but slightly different to me.

Hopalong

[warpspeed]

Bill,

I think the others have nailed it pretty good. I find that IDPA ( time plus ) demands accuracy. The penalty is too great. Down 3 mean 1.5 secs added. It's worth it to take an extra 0.5 sec to avoid a down 3. You can't make it up. I've experimented with the classifier. All out vs all points. All points wins everytime. At least for me.

Shoot ICORE like IDPA, you will do fine.

[Bubber]

Bill, I shoot ICORE and USPSA. I attack a stage the same way for both games. (I wish I was a better tactician). The games are very similar. In USPSA if you are faster then the next fellow you can get away with slightly less hits in the A zone. You can do this in ICORE but you have to be a lot faster than the next guy. For every hit scored not an A will add 1 second to your time and 2 seconds will be added if it is scored in the C zone. I have shot a couple of IDPA matches and this will also ring true in the scoring process. In either game you must hit as fast as you can and make the best hits possiblein that time frame. On another note you can have more than 6 shots in an array but it must not be an advantage for a 7 or 8 shot. Thus 10 or 12 hits in an array or the 7th and 8th shot must be a little harder from a shoooting position and should be available from another position where you must engage other targets also. Good luck with the model 10's. I shot modified 10's for a few years in ICORE and USPSA before the advent of a Revovler Division.

[Flexmoney]

Bill,

Steel Challenge is (max) 5 shots clean, per run/string. You do 5 runs/strings on each stage. Throw away your worst run of the stage.

At Circleville (3rd Saturday), we score missed plates at +5 seconds (other plces only ding you +3).

All draws are hands above shoulders. Very little, if any, movement.

There is a "Stop plate" that must be shot last. Other than that, the engagement order is up to the shooter.

---------------

NRA Action Pistol is pretty much all accuracy with a generous (for you) par time. Just add in the draw to the equation. (4th saturday at Circleville) It's not easy.

[pskys2]

Bill, glad to see an interest.

When scoping out a really fast IPSC stage many years ago I had a GM tell me he would shoot for points on that course. I asked him why? He responsed that since all the other GM's are pretty much going to run it with the same "times", he couldn't afford to "Hose it" and drop points. He didn't mean he would slow down, he just didn't speed up out of control because it looked easy.

I've had some of my best "groups" when shooting at top speed. Not out of control speed, but top speed.

What little ICORE I've shot has shown that it requires even more "control". Which has little to do with speed.

The key is taking the amount of time needed to be sure of acceptable shot placement and no more, regardless of discipline. It's just each discipline has different general placement requirements.

But, you can run into courses, or shots within a course, in each that mimicks another discipline. An IPSC upper A-zone is about half the size of the Bianchi X-ring. And a Bianchi A-zone at 3 yards is easier than an IPSC Classic C-zone at 15 yards.

As for approaching stage breakdown, a good IPSC stage can give you enough options to leave you dizzy. Sometimes it's best to just keep it simple, and rely on your shooting skills. Fancy ain't always pretty.

P.S. Remember that in the past, most of the guys competing in Revolver Division at the Nationals Level seem a bit more committed than the average of the other Divisions at the same level/class. At least you had the opportunity and the moxy to step up and take a swing.

[JohnRodriguez]

USPSA is shoot on the move, without getting any misses or penalties. always be in motion. always be aware of your front sight. If you know you threw a shoot off, then make it up after the relaod. you can't shoot fast enough to make up 2 or three mike's, not in revo.

ICORE is plant and shoot. shoot slow enough to get all A's and fast enough to not get B's.

[David Sinko]

ICORE is much more accuracy oriented. Also, there is no major/minor scoring in ICORE. I like being able to shoot a match at 165 PF and being scored differently because of it.

IDPA did have a lot of good things going for it. I didn't mind the revolver split but now nobody is held accountable to the 165 PF requirement in ESR. Some shooters show up at major matches with their 125 PF ESR loads knowing that they will never see a chrono or be held accountable.

USPSA still has the most to offer.

Dave Sinko

[ffl]

I started shooting USPSA and took up ICORE seriously about 6 months ago. I still shoot both. Here are my observations.

1. in order to win in ICORE you must shoot fast and accurate

2. in order to win in USPSA you must shoot fast and hit the target, not just shoot A's

shooting ICORE has made me a better shooter both with my 1911 as well as with my revolver, because in ICORE you must hit the A ring or be penalized and since it is a time thing a errant shot just killed your super fast run.

David

[pskys2]

You "CAN" outrun non-"A" Zone hits in IPSC, but top shooters don't need to try. You Can "NOT" do it in ICORE.

The very thing I love about IPSC is what increases nervousness in it. The SPEED! I love that adrenalin rush of a smoking run, even if the points are a bit off.

I actually feel less pressure, and try to calm down more, in ICORE. Smooth is more important.

Now if I could only learn to shoot relaxed as in ICORE but with IPSC speed, I might actually get good in both.

I do think ICORE helps me in IPSC, but IPSC tends to interfere with the necessary ICORE skills.

But just like practicing SH/WH it's good to do it.

Edited June 28, 2007 by pskys2

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

As my knees get worse and the arthritis slows my trigger speed, my only advantage is my accuracy. I can usually survive ICORE with a decent score but without the foot speed needed, I shoot USPSA because I enjoy it.

That said, I put up my USPSA revolver gear this year and I am shooting a S&W M&P. My 8 shot is still my ICORE gun but we have very little ICORE in the Northeast. I enjoy the Australian postals and look to shoot some more ICORE when I can find it within a reasonable distance.

Regards,

[Jaxshooter]

I am with Round Gun on ICORE. With bad knees and a bad shoulder I tend to be far more competitive in ICORE than USPSA. I can shoot very accurately but can't run and get in and out of positions fast anymore.

[Bubber]

You "CAN" outrun non-"A" Zone hits in IPSC, but top shooters don't need to try. You Can "NOT" do it in ICORE.

The very thing I love about IPSC is what increases nervousness in it. The SPEED! I love that adrenalin rush of a smoking run, even if the points are a bit off.

I actually feel less pressure, and try to calm down more, in ICORE. Smooth is more important.

Now if I could only learn to shoot relaxed as in ICORE but with IPSC speed, I might actually get good in both.

I do think ICORE helps me in IPSC, but IPSC tends to interfere with the necessary ICORE skills.

But just like practicing SH/WH it's good to do it.

I do concur with pskys2, However ICORE can be pure speed. The IRC this year was a Run N Gun match with IPSC like stages. Where you can shoot on the edge in IPSC you may also do in ICORE. It's just a thinner edge and you can fall off quickly. It is a tighter balancing act.

[fdkay]

I've shot ICORE, IPSC and IDPA, all with revolvers. All three have there merits, IDPA you must be concious of cover and reload accordingly, accuracy, depending on the stage can be very important. ICORE and IPSC/USPSA are very similar in the way you can attack each stage, providing you are using firearms with the same limitations. When I was shooting IPSC frquently, my ICORE scores were much better and vice versa. Even in IPSC, you can't make up missed shots when shooting a revolver, any extra reload adds too much time.

Of course, I still shoot too fast for my meager skills.

[Flexmoney]

I'm very suprised to hear revolver shooters talk about shooting USPSA with a speed focus.

Here's the deal that I'm not sure a lot of folks get. USPSA's hit factor is just another way of saying points per second...which is (remember math class) another way of saying the inverse...seconds per point (time plus).

That is what you are talking about in the other games. So, do the math and you are talking the same laugage. You can (and should) state your USPSA hit factors as how many seconds of added time a point down is worth.

I think, one thing that throws people is that the hit factor in USPSA is different for every shooter and for every stage. So, it's variable, big deal. Just average a bunch of your hit factors together from a match and get a number. Work with that.

If you shoot an USPSA stage with a 4 hit factor, that is the same as saying you collected 4 points per second. And, if you do the math, that translates into (1sec/4pts=0.25 sec/pt) 0.25 seconds for each point down.

We can go the other way too. IDPA is 0.50s per point down. That translates into a 2 hit factor. If (as reported above) ICORE is 1 full second per point down, that is the same as a 1 hit factor stage.

Sure, the lower the hit factor, the more important accuracy is. But, with lower hit factors, accuracy is already vital. (check your scores, USPSA revolver shooters shoot low hit factors)

And, with so much other stuff going on (running around, setups, reloading) in a course of fire...that takes up the bulk of the time...when it comes time to shoot...collect the points.