2007 Topton Rifle Match

[Mig]

+ 1 for Bill, Larry and the entire crew at Topton for the outstanding rifle match.

[Gregory_k]

+1 on a great match.

+1

[Bill H]

The match was very well rounded with something for everyone. Everything went very smooth on our squad with very few backups. We had a blast. You guys did one heck of a job. Thanks again!

[davidwiz]

I thought the match was very good and well run.

Just a few comments about the 200 yard steel stage: 1) It was very difficult for the ROs to tell when the steel was hit, as the "flasher" didn't flash very well, it seemed to move only about 1". Even people with binoculars had a hard time telling. 2) If a person missed the steel low, or to the left or right, a large amount of dust was kicked up, covering the steel plates. 3) The way the steel was set, it was very difficult for some people to even see where the targets where, even when they were freshly painted. In the future, it might be a good idea to use some kind of backer, such as black plastic, to set the white steel target from the bankground.

[ALRAY]

I thought the match was very good and well run.

Just a few comments about the 200 yard steel stage: 1) It was very difficult for the ROs to tell when the steel was hit, as the "flasher" didn't flash very well, it seemed to move only about 1". Even people with binoculars had a hard time telling. 2) If a person missed the steel low, or to the left or right, a large amount of dust was kicked up, covering the steel plates. 3) The way the steel was set, it was very difficult for some people to even see where the targets where, even when they were freshly painted. In the future, it might be a good idea to use some kind of backer, such as black plastic, to set the white steel target from the bankground.

The match was great. Thanks to the guys at Topton.

Regarding the long range stage, I didn't see anything wrong or different from any other long range rifle stage. If you want to see the flasher really move at 200yds, shoot a heavier bullet or shoot major. If you can't see through the dust, don't miss. If you can't see the steel, get better optics. If you shoot limited, that's your choice.

[LJE]

The preliminary match results are now posted, along with some videos & photos.

Pa State Rifle Match Results

Larry

edited to update link to new rifle match page

Edited July 5, 2007 by LJE

[davidwiz]

Regarding the long range stage, I didn't see anything wrong or different from any other long range rifle stage. If you want to see the flasher really move at 200yds, shoot a heavier bullet or shoot major. If you can't see through the dust, don't miss. If you can't see the steel, get better optics. If you shoot limited, that's your choice.

Please re-read what I wrote. I said that it was difficult for the RO to see if the steel target was hit. A hit on a steel target is a hit - regardless of what weight bullet you are using. I believe, and others did too, was that it was difficult to see if the steel target was hit b/c the "flasher" didn't move too much.

And snarky comments about "not missing" and to "get better optics" are in poor taste. As I said, it was other people shooting who had trouble seeing the steel target. I could see the steel targets just fine. Other major 3-Gun matches use backers on distant steel targets (such as the SMM).

For some reason, constructive criticism on this forum is not tolerated.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Regarding the long range stage, I didn't see anything wrong or different from any other long range rifle stage. If you want to see the flasher really move at 200yds, shoot a heavier bullet or shoot major. If you can't see through the dust, don't miss. If you can't see the steel, get better optics. If you shoot limited, that's your choice.

Please re-read what I wrote. I said that it was difficult for the RO to see if the steel target was hit. A hit on a steel target is a hit - regardless of what weight bullet you are using. I believe, and others did too, was that it was difficult to see if the steel target was hit b/c the "flasher" didn't move too much.

And snarky comments about "not missing" and to "get better optics" are in poor taste. As I said, it was other people shooting who had trouble seeing the steel target. I could see the steel targets just fine. Other major 3-Gun matches use backers on distant steel targets (such as the SMM).

For some reason, constructive criticism on this forum is not tolerated.

David, I agree, at times it was very hard to call someones shot. I spent some time on the Binos, it was tough. Even worse was when someone hit the upright and thought they hit the plate.

[BillL223]

David, thanks for your suggestion regarding backers behind the plates. I will try to use them next year. I don't know if this the right forum, but I welcome suggestions on how to improve this match. Bill Lehman

[Jim Norman]

Bill, Dave, Larry.

Thank you for a ggreat match. Good stages, great weather.

Addressing the question of the flashers. the rules are actually silent on this. At least so far as I could find in a quick read. A Flasher is neither a plate, nor a separating plate nor a popper.

I think that this needs to be addressed if USPSA is to remain a functional Multi-gun/Long gun orgainization. A hit on a plate must eihter knock the plate down or be considered REF. A hit on a popper either knocks it down or if it fails a calibration, is REF. Flashers are neither.

One solution is to have a really well balanced flasher so that a .22LR would move it (Not likely)

An alternate is the electronic flashers that send a strobe when the steel is hit.

Problem is that noe of the above are addressed in the rules. (apparently)

Backers I suppose would help with seeing thetarget, but do they help with calling the hit? Larger flash cards? Maybe.

The MGM flashers work pretty well, but if you hit them in quick successtion with a .308 they are really rocking!

An ATV and a dedicated RO to race to the end and score paper? or Paint steel? Not user friendly, takes way too much time.

One match a few years back had a dozen LaRue targets. A hit will send them down, then they auto reset. Same problem though, the rules do not address this type of target.

Jim

[racerba]

Jim,

Why do we need a rule on this matter? The problem is not with the type of activation, the problem is with seeing the hits. There is no REF. - they worked as they were meant to work. It's just seeing them is the problem. Using backers may just be the solution. No new rules needed, just a different type of flag or something. Electronic flashers are great, but the cost may not justify it.

[Jim Norman]

racerba,

Actually there is a problem. The target is not covered by USPSA rules. Do I have a problem simply stating make it move or it doesn't count? Not really, but that is not covered. Look at it this way. IF you hit a plate, it either falls or it doesn't. If you hit it and it falls you get the hit. If you hit it and it only moves, it is REF. Hit a popper, it falls good, it doesn;t fall, Calibrate, if it falls, Mike, if it doesn't, REF.

Now we put in a flasher. We have 30 people shoot at it. we can no longer see a paint chip, the shooter hits the stell high, the flasher moves so imperseptively that we can't tell. Hit? Miss? how much movement is a hit? how little movement is a Mke?

I think we first off need to accept the Flasher as a USPSA target and then specify how to score it.

And for the record, I rally don't know how to do it.

On our squad, we had a guy (Thanks Bill) with a really nice pair of binos. We could see the slightest movement. Should the stage incorporate a spotting scope? Should there be a minimum flash card size? All other targets are specifically spelled out as to size and scoring. the plates on the flash targets are not of the "approved" size and type.

Again for the record, I like flash targets and I agree they are needed in order to make a rifle match flow. We just need to have them covered so every match treats them the same and shooters know what to expect.

Now, if we are talking "Outlaw" matches, ask at the match and shoot the darned things. Each match may have its own criteria. USPSA does not.

Jim

[Noah Gladstone]

I think a different set of flashers will solve the problem. I have shot at matches that used flashers that were much easier to see. We just need to make the investment.

[LJE]

racerba,

Actually there is a problem. The target is not covered by USPSA rules. Do I have a problem simply stating make it move or it doesn't count? Not really, but that is not covered. Look at it this way. IF you hit a plate, it either falls or it doesn't. If you hit it and it falls you get the hit. If you hit it and it only moves, it is REF. Hit a popper, it falls good, it doesn;t fall, Calibrate, if it falls, Mike, if it doesn't, REF.

Now we put in a flasher. We have 30 people shoot at it. we can no longer see a paint chip, the shooter hits the stell high, the flasher moves so imperseptively that we can't tell. Hit? Miss? how much movement is a hit? how little movement is a Mke?

I think we first off need to accept the Flasher as a USPSA target and then specify how to score it.

And for the record, I rally don't know how to do it.

On our squad, we had a guy (Thanks Bill) with a really nice pair of binos. We could see the slightest movement. Should the stage incorporate a spotting scope? Should there be a minimum flash card size? All other targets are specifically spelled out as to size and scoring. the plates on the flash targets are not of the "approved" size and type.

Again for the record, I like flash targets and I agree they are needed in order to make a rifle match flow. We just need to have them covered so every match treats them the same and shooters know what to expect.

Now, if we are talking "Outlaw" matches, ask at the match and shoot the darned things. Each match may have its own criteria. USPSA does not.

Jim

From the Rifle rulebook: Read the first sentence carefully - "SELF INDICATE"

4.3.1.5 Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn or

self-indicate (see Rule 4.3.1) to score. Scoring metal targets

which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways or which a

Range Officer deems have fallen or overturned or self-indicated

due to a shot on the apparatus supporting them or for

any other accidental reason, will be treated as range equipment

failure (see Rule 4.6.1).

When we tested the flashers prior to the match, a center hit from a 223 produduced a full flag indication. One of the biggest problems was lighting conditions. In the morning to mid day, the plates and indicator flags are quite easy to see. In the afternoon and end of day, the range is backlit, making visibily dificult.

Larry

[Jim Norman]

Larry,

I stand corrected. I read through the rule book prior to posting and missed that. I looked in the appendix under targets and didn't see anything there about self-indicating targets.

We shot this stage as our 3rd stage of the day. We painted the plates for our first shooter. I watched his hits through the binos. In several cases,the hits were obvious, but the flasher barely moved. Lowhits did a lot better than high hits.

Did I say I had fun? You bet! I would be back in a heartbeat for another match.

Jim

[Bill H]

Don't let this one thing make a great match look bad. As Larry said the lighting changes made things more difficult. This was one of my last stages and the targets were very hard to see clearly at even 4X. Maybe some rifle knockdown targets may be the answer even though resetting would take much longer (not a good thing). The spotting of hits is often a problem on flashers. The shooter is often at the mercy of the spotter as far as speed goes. People get tired and mistakes get made. Alot of us don't have great vision anymore. A least with knockdowns there is no question.

[RiggerJJ]

out here in Colorado we use MGM type flash targets and RnR Racing type targets all the time out to 400 yards and beyond. a few lessons we have learned:

paint the target plate black. it is the best color to use in all lighting conditions for scopes and iron sights.

DO NOT put a backer (big white sheet or the like) behind the target. the shooter will not be able to see his misses and adjust. this will piss off the shooters more than anything else.

use at least a 68 grain bullet in 223 for obvious reasons.

use a fluorescent orange flasher card. not green or yellow, etc.

make sure the ro knows which target the shooter is engaging. yes, the ro must call hits so he must know where the shooter is going. so this ultimately puts the responsibility on the shooter to let them know where he is shooting.

the spotting ro (not on the clock) must have good eyesight and probably a decent of binos. calling hits is all he does, from a comfortable seated position if possible. a scribe is also handy to mark down the hits he calls.

hope this helps!

jj

[Jim Norman]

Excellent advice!

Jim

[davidwiz]

As I said, I thought the match was very well put together and well run. I had a lot of fun. Just one small suggestion for improvement. It is good to see that the MD listens to advice.

[racerba]

make sure the ro knows which target the shooter is engaging. yes, the ro must call hits so he must know where the shooter is going. so this ultimately puts the responsibility on the shooter to let them know where he is shooting.

Best advice. I was scanning all 4 targets and sometimes I'm looking at the 1st target, the shooter engages the 4th target. Lucky for us, we had two spotters.

Edited July 10, 2007 by racerba