Novice Division - Uspsa

[Brendan M]

I wanted to expand on what Flexmoney is saying in another post. I’m a brand new shooter. I’ve owned handguns in the past but didn’t at the time I got interested. So I was starting from scratch. I put in a lot of research into equipment, what class I would shoot and so on. It was all very confusing and somewhat intimidating. I was worried about spending money on the wrong stuff (it’s called buyers remorse; it’s a very powerful behavior finance issue which can prevent people from making buy decisions).

I would love a Novice Division. Have an approved equipment list with the goal to keep cost to a minimum, reduce possible equipment advantages, purchasing mistakes and maximize fun.

I name specific products because it’s what I’m familiar with. I’m not recommending only these products get used. The more different suppliers we have the better.

Guns

Holsters

Magazine Pouches

Belt

Magazines

Rules:

Minimum power factor for Major: Not applicable

Minor power factor: 125

Minimum bullet weight: No

Minimum bullet caliber: 9mm

Minimum bullet caliber for Major: Not applicable

Minimum trigger pull: No

Maximum barrel length: 5.5”

Maximum magazine length: Yes must be sold with stock gun, may not extend past magazine well. No modifications allowed.

Maximum ammunition capacity: May not be modified above amount from manufacture.

Holsters, Mag Pouches: From approved list, no modifications.

Rule 5.2.3.1 applies: No

Optical/electronic sights: No

Ports permitted: No

Maximum weight: Yes, 2 ounces over factory specified

Special conditions:

1. Single-action-only handguns could be on approved list. Safety on for first shot.

2. Double-action handguns, first shot must be double-action.

3. Allowed modifications same as Production class.

In keeping with the idea of maximizing fun I would suggest a different rating system then the traditional U, C, B, A, M, GM for the Novices Division only. I would suggest simply NC, NB, and NA. Everyone gets a passing grade automatically, remember this is about fun. Bottom 0 to <60% = NC, 60% to <85% = NB, 85% and above = NA. This would act as a feeder system for other Divisions. If you want to move to Master or Grand Master level you have to get out of Novice Division. It makes sense, what’s a Novice Grand Master?

One of the places I got in trouble was the holster, magazine pouches, magazine and belt set up. Here are the problems I encountered (all of which I’m in the process of fixing with new equipment)

Belt: I was using a 1.25 inch regular leather belt. While it was okay it became clear that the extra stiff 5.11 type belts were much better.

This is very important for safe one hand draws. In the few matches I’ve been to I’ve seen several new shooters with poor belts really struggle with draws. While I haven’t been around long enough to know I intuitively believe the draw is a higher risk activity. I bought a good stiff belt but it is 1.5 inches wide so I have to change the loops on my holster and magazine pouches. More money, more delay until I truly have a good setup.

Holsters: Should be bought to go with belt. I would encourage the use of the cheap Uncle Mike’s type Kydex belt holsters without extra retention system. They are cheap, safe, and easy to draw from; needs to fit belt width.

Magazine Pouches: Need 4 and they need to fit belt width.

Magazines: Have 5. Most guns are sold with 2, needs to bring 3 extra. Teach everyone about companies like Mec-Gar.

This is important because I showed up to one of my first matches with two magazines only to face a 28 shot stage including a Texas Star. I didn’t do it right and loaded my magazines to full capacity in Production and still only had 32 shots. I knew I wasn’t going to be able to finish the stage, one more thing to worry about to take away from the fun. It would have been much better and more fun if I had 5 16 round magazines to try to actually finish the stage.

This is what would it cost to get the right equipment from scratch, new (Glock example):

Glock 17 459.00

5.11 Trainer Belt 30.00

Uncle Mike’s Holster (Belt Style) 20.00

Uncle Mike’s Double Mag Case (Belt Style) x2 42.00

Glock 17 after market 17 round mags x3 60.00

Total 611.00

What a great starting point in the sport. Think about it. If you know who this should go to at the USPSA forward it.

The people I have met in shooting so far have been by far the friendliest of any activity I have ever ventured into. This sport should be growing fast. A Novice Division would help.

[Chris Keen]

Count me in ....... NC, right

Kinda different way of looking at things, but I would say if you make your way up to A class you are no longer a novice.

Some people work long and hard to make A class.

[shred]

IMO you should move out of Novice right after you win Novice, or beat 10% of the regular shooters at a match. Novice division gear requirements would be "whatever you brung"

[AlamoShooter]

Well... Novice for Sportsman's Team Challenge is any team that has not shot in a National event. & or placed more than 450 out of 600 in a regional event.

So ?? The Novice div. used to be used to draw in teams to make the trip to national.

STC needs shooters & more teams for nationals,... form what I saw IPSC has a waiting list.

Edited November 26, 2006 by AlamoShooter

[Tim James]

A novice class/division would be a great idea, just like they do in SCCA autocross. If you're new to the sport, you run heads up against the other novices. You can play there a maximum of 3 times or get bumped out if you win it. I agree with shred, though, that it should be run-what-you-brung to simplify things. Just like driving ability is more important than your car when you're new to the sport, a good shooter will be able to beat the guy borrowing his friend's STI.

And before the usual crowd comes in to complain that there wouldn't be enough people to break out novices: well, that's your job to invite some friends! Having a separate class or division is a good way to keep them there long enough to get involved.

[JFlowers]

Okay, but how do you go anywhere from a Novice Division? You now have an investment in gear that is limited to really only one division. A Glock 17 could compete in L, L10, or P, but would be minor in two of those.

I think a better solution would be a create a much better introductory information package. One that puts more stress on P, L, L10, SS than on Open. Gives good information of gear choices, simplifies rules explanations, maybe some pointers, simple stage video.

[Jim Norman]

And after you win Novice or shoot three times as a novice, what do you do with your Novice class equipment? A quick read says it likely isn't fully compatible anywhere else.

We generally suggest that a new shooter attend our twice monthly practice/intro match. That he not buy anyting at all. We will bend every equipment rule to get that new shooter up and shooting. If they like what they see, and generally they do, we council them on equipment and divisions. Usually they already have a suitable gun for some division. They need a holster that works and a few mag pouches. Not too many people start their shooting career in USPSA, most have lready had some level of shooting experiance.

As for Novice, L-10, Limited, Production, Revolver are all open to the "U" class shooter. You start out as a U, then shooting 4 classifers, you are now a D, C, B etc.

Seems on one hand we are arguing that we have too many divisions and now we are arguing for one more that has specialized equipment and only allows yo uto remain there for three matches.

Strange

Jim

[shred]

My proposal for Novice had "run what you brung" as the gear requirements. After winning it or beating 10% of the shooters at a match (I prefer that to 3-tries-and-you're-out), it should be pretty clear to our newly-minted non-novice what division they want to play in and what they need to modify or get more of.

[MasterLefty]

Once upon a time, we had this division. When it was only a "proposed division", it was called practical carry.

Practical Carry became Production.

Mike Martin moved to add the following paragraph to the Practical Carry Guidelines:

"Practical Carry Category was developed by USPSA specifically to encourage new shooters who do not own competitive guns to compete in our sport. These new shooters should be competing against shooters of similar ability. Therefore, it is inappropriate for experienced USPSA members to compete in "Practical Carry".

Seconded by Randy Cestaro. Roll Call vote requested. Voting in favor - Randy Cestaro, Mike Martin, Dave Carruthers, Keith Milberger, Steve Kalamen, Jeff Nelson (by proxy), John Hurst; voting opposed, Larry Bullock.

Just a little history.

Kenny

At a local level, I like Shred's idea and we use it in a modified fashion at our home club with non-USPSA members.

[wide45]

Please. No new divisions.

Might fly as a catagory.

I remember Practical Carry.

Therefore, it is inappropriate for experienced USPSA members to compete in "Practical Carry".

That idea didn't last long.

[uscbigdawg]

Novice = D Class or Unclassified.

Rich

[h4444]

You could shoot as a U at the local level for a long time before ever getting classified.

Now I know at our club, we do a pretty good job educating new shooters, we want to be sure they have fun and be safe. New folks do tend to run what they brung and as they learn more about the game, divisions, classes and etc,,,,,,they slowly begin moving up the equipment/divisions and settle into what they like.

There isn't anyting wrong with hanging out in U for a while as a new shooter.

If you want to be competitive, you can get classified and the system in theory pits you against shooters of similar skill level.

But, if it is all for fun and competition isn't a big deal, U is there and local clubs I feel should be somewhat flexible with new shooters with regard to equipment.

[uscbigdawg]

The other thing that can be done at the local level, which apparently isn't done enough, is holding special classifier matches. I hear a lot that y'all have a hard time getting classified.

In northern California (Sac/SF), we have 3 major ranges and 4 clubs (4/5 if you want a little bit of a drive). At my home club, we try and hold special classifiers at least once a year. I think the ideal, and max is like 2. Not totally sure though. Between ours and adjacent clubs doing similar, it helps get folks classified quickly.

That said, with new folks, we are VERY flexible with equipment. The reason is simple. We want them to come back. This isn't just for USPSA/IPSC, this should be for all shooting sports. I only say this 'cause in another thread, I'm asking how my G22 that's set up for L-10/Limited would fly in IDPA and I have to take off half the crap I've done to it, and buy more mags (big_kahuna!).

That said, last night I shot a "tactical" pistol match just outside Fayetteville. It was fun and I learned that I can actually shoot a Glock pretty well, but I suck with a flashlight. Had fun though. The big thing with regards to equipment, I had my G22, hi-cap mags w/ extensions, my Fobus holster and mag pouches and no one said a word. It's about the shooting, not if someone is fully ready in a particular division and that's it and how it should be.

Rich

[EricW]

How about "novices" get a tootsie pop and a loaner teddy bear for the first three matches.

[TBF]

My proposal for Novice had "run what you brung" as the gear requirements. After winning it or beating 10% of the shooters at a match (I prefer that to 3-tries-and-you're-out), it should be pretty clear to our newly-minted non-novice what division they want to play in and what they need to modify or get more of.

Exactly !

New shooters will show up just to shoot and check it out without buying anything extra .

The first time shooter hearing " your gun has to be classified as open " , and getting stomped badly by real open shooters might not come back.

Likewise if the first advice a new shooter gets is to spend 3 paychecks on new gear to comply with a division , they might not come back .

Make it as easy as possible to check out USPSA and more shooters will show up , some will get addicted ..

Travis F.

[open17]

New shooters will show up just to shoot and check it out without buying anything extra .

The first time shooter hearing " your gun has to be classified as open " , and getting stomped badly by real open shooters might not come back.

Likewise if the first advice a new shooter gets is to spend 3 paychecks on new gear to comply with a division , they might not come back .

Make it as easy as possible to check out USPSA and more shooters will show up , some will get addicted ..

Travis F.

Hmm. What do you do about safety training? Around here the norm is a safety class

consisting of a training book followed by a live fire session. That and completion of the

first match get's the shooter a safety card. New shooters are assigned a mentor/coach

for the first match. Classes are scheduled or by appointment, depending on the demand/range.

Yes, there are shooters that we will do a quick before-the-match safet check on, and they

shoot the first match with a mentor. If they have experience in another dicipline,

LE or military experience or are known personally by one of the experienced shooters

to be competent. We have also gently said NO to the shooter who shows up on match

day with a new gun and no experience. And then scheduled him/her for safety training.

My advise to new shooters interested in competing has always been to go WATCH a

match or two. Ask lots of questions. USPSA shooters are among the friendliest and

most helpful people you will ever meet.

Safety first.

[AikiDale]

Novice = D Class or Unclassified.

Rich

Amen.

All a new shooter needs is a pistol, a holster and some magazines. He is unclassified. His gun will pretty much dictate which division he should shoot in. By the time he has enough matches with classifiers to get a classification he will have an idea which division he will either stay in or purchase new toys for.

A novice division is a great idea and we have 6 of them.

[big_kahuna]

Concur with comments by Rich, Aikidale, Wide45 et al...

With the pressure to "reduce divisions", adding another one called Novice or something similar might just muddy the water more. And, recruiting/indoctrination of new folks can be accomplished very well with what we have today.

At our club, we invite new shooters to bring whatever gear they have. They can observe a match first if they don't feel comfortable shooting yet... then Fam fire and safety orientation.... then Mentors assigned for their first several matches.

Many of the "seasoned" shooters at our club brings extra gear for newbies and other shooters to try. Extra guns, holsters, ammo, mags, everything. Production through open division gear. Newbies are encouraged to fam fire the stuff, and if they are interested they can try a complete rig out for one or two whole matches. How's that for making someone feel welcome and showing them the ropes? Plus it helps the new folks make informed purchasing decisions. Over the course of time the new folks accumulate gear and become seasoned shooters... Now they're in the position of lending spare gear and ammo to other newbies who are trying this game. Pay it forward... it's a win-win. I think this works much better than creation of a Novice division.

[half inch groups]

I am still looking to shoot my first match and I am unclear if you must shoot 4 classifiers to bump up in class if your good enough. Shouldnt a Classifier be just that? Classify and jump in to the appropriate class w shooters of the same skill? It confuses me to no end! I just want to shoot with good shooters. At least as good as me and better. If I dont, How will I ever improve? When I took up skeet 20 years ago, I shot as good as my squad. the minute I shot with old timers and pro's my scores and my game were great. A beginner walks up and my scores suck! I sometimes feel "your only as good as your competition". That being said, If I (for example) walk in and in the classifiers shoot my scores as good as say a B class or even A, I will be forced to shoot with U's until I complete 4 Classifiers? I dont see how that is shooting with people of the same skill levels at all, and I dont get how the rest classify if they keep getting smoked by shooters with way more experience. I learned about the gear, I make plenty of money and had fun building and buying my gear. I want to shoot it. Am I totally off base here or am I making any sense?

[Chris Keen]

You will always shoot WITH whoever happens to be at a particular match, but you are only COMPETING against shooters with the same classification as you.

You may even beat A B or C class shooters, and at the same time U D or C class may beat A's and above.

The classification really counts in the Major Matches, in regards to handing out trophies, and such.

[uscbigdawg]

Not totally off base. The point of multiple classifier to establish your classification is to get a mean percentage. For instance. I've had a couple of classifier well above my current percentage. In the case of one it was in the high 90's. Am I that good? Yes, for that stage on that day. Am I CONSISTENTLY that good. Not yet and that's where the classification system works. It takes your average performance.

Now, shooting better with those around you is to a degree true. I know that when I shoot with other shooters of my ability and higher, my performance is elevated. Too, it's one of the reasons why the Super Squad shoots together. However, know too that this is an individual sport and that if you measure your performance against others, you'll always be found wanting. That said, if you haven't shot your first match, my advice would be to get out and shoot.

Rich

ETA: Field courses and classifiers are two completely different animals. I know of more than a few Master and Grandmaster shooters that get roasted in field courses by A, B & C shooters all day.

Edited November 26, 2006 by uscbigdawg

[open17]

I am still looking to shoot my first match and I am unclear if you must shoot 4 classifiers to bump up in class if your good enough. Shouldnt a Classifier be just that? Classify and jump in to the appropriate class w shooters of the same skill? It confuses me to no end! I just want to shoot with good shooters. At least as good as me and better. If I dont, How will I ever improve? When I took up skeet 20 years ago, I shot as good as my squad. the minute I shot with old timers and pro's my scores and my game were great. A beginner walks up and my scores suck! I sometimes feel "your only as good as your competition". That being said, If I (for example) walk in and in the classifiers shoot my scores as good as say a B class or even A, I will be forced to shoot with U's until I complete 4 Classifiers? I dont see how that is shooting with people of the same skill levels at all, and I dont get how the rest classify if they keep getting smoked by shooters with way more experience. I learned about the gear, I make plenty of money and had fun building and buying my gear. I want to shoot it. Am I totally off base here or am I making any sense?

4 classifiers for initial classification in a division. After you get 8, your classification may

be adjusted based on the best 6. It's best 6 of previous 8 after that. Them's the rules.

If your own level of shooting is determined by the skill level of those around you, you might

want to work on that a bit. We all tend to try to "shoot up" to the level of the best on

the squad, but it can bite you hard. Get out there and shoot some matches. Practice.

Ask the better shooters "why did you shoot it that way?" Find some shooters that are

better than you and practice with them. Be safe and have fun!

[half inch groups]

I understand that there will always be better shooters than me in classifiers, but must we all go through 4-8 of them? How many are there a year? How many in the south east? Can someone in U class shoot a national? is there a U class in Nationals? I train with an ex LAPD Trainer, who now works at a local range. He shot IDPA, and we both are really into Steel Challenge. I have been training for ISPC, SC, and I practice bulleyse at least 1x weekly.

I have some training and watched matches. I just signed up with USPSA, and am waiting for my membership info. My username and password wont work on the site, so i have been limited to what I have learned about the sport. So how many classifiers does it take to get to the end of a tootsie pop? How long could it possibly take to get classified? long enough to burn out?

[uscbigdawg]

For someone that hasn't shot a match and just stated that you don't know much about the sport, you sure are awfully critical about the process.

As stated, you need 4 classifiers for an initial classification. After that it's best 6 of the most recent 8.

You can classify in one day at a special classifier match (where all the stages are classifiers). Don't know where you're at, but in northern California there's about 5 matches within a 3 week span every month. Guess what? Each with a classifier. If you're in southern California there's at least that many matches per month (I know Norco has theirs every Saturday and there's still Piru and Prado).

All the training that you're doing is great. Doesn't mean squat until you shoot a match though. Start with that. There are more than a few clubs in the southeast. Check out the Club Finder on USPSA.org.

As for Unclassified shooters shooting in the Nationals. Yes you can. You shoot for overall finish. There is no Unclassified Class. Again, worry about shooting your first match before thinking of winning the Nationals.

Rich

[half inch groups]

another question. I just recently read that single action pistols are allowed in production class as long they have an upright safety. Does this mean my kimber custom II qualifies for a production pistol? what about my browning HI-Power 9mm? it is a doublestack...