Idpa Rules On Steel Targets

[Fireant]

Gman,

I'm being nice I've already emailed, called and sent some correspondence by snail mail. Now I'm just sitting back and holding my breath. Like I've said many times, I'm just trying to point out what the current rule book calls for or does not call for. Like someone said a few posts up, It'd be nice to know the rules before you show up to the match.

[p99shooter]

The MD is an IDPA certified SO who is in charge of every aspect

of a match. The MD has the final say on ALL match issues and his

decision is final.

The MD and stage designers should ensure that all steel will fill if hit. At are club, we do this in a pre-match walk through.

If a shooter puts what she/he thinks is a "good hit" or multiple "good hits" on steel and it does not fall, things can go a couple of ways:

-A sensible SO would tell the shooter to stop, and check the popper. From the rulebook:

2. Remember that the shooter is always given the benefit of any

doubt.

The SO, or scorekeeper can take her/his eyes off the gun long enough to watch where the hit on the popper is, and make an informed decision about whether to stop the shooter.

If the shooter stops herself / himself, and the SO does not agree with it, it goes before the MD, who has the authority to do whatever testing is necessary and make the final call.

I don't believe that the IDPA rulebook needs to be modified with regard to steel targets.

[Fireant]

P99,

don't you think the subjectivity of that system leaves too much gray area? One MD calls it one way another a different way. The MD is a trained SO, but until recently that traning varried wildly depending on who gave the training. Now at least they have a set curriculum. Although the current SO's do not have to retake the training. Way too much gray area, one MD is leniant and allows several reshoots for range equipment malfunctions, another is(for lack of a better term) a range nazi and refuses any reshoots for REM. I'm afraid that without a standardization of the rules it will drive some new shooters away and continue to fustrate those of us that see some of the short comings of the game.

[p99shooter]

Honestly, I'd would let capitalism sort it out. Clubs that treat shooters unfairly will lose membership and fail financially. Clubs that run sanctioned matches and don't treat shooters well won't be able to run that match the following year.

[Flexmoney]

So, for IDPA to prosper, it would be in their best interest to offer some better guidance in this case...

[GmanCdp]

not really..rule book is all ready in place and even though there are no prerequisites required by HQ to be a MD...then we,they them, all seem to learn on how to put on a state level match on our own...HQ kinda gives a "things to do list" in the rulebook for a state match...but they [HQ] don't have any formal type of in person training...just what P99 said above.."The MD is an IDPA certified SO who is in charge of every aspect

of a match. The MD has the final say on ALL match issues and his

decision is final." some shooters and SO's will agree and some won't....

.when a shooter complains at a state or regional match and does'nt get any satisfaction with the answer from the MD..and when he calls HQ and tell his side,HQ will just call the Md back and talk about it..we all bleed when we are cut...some will just bleed a little more then others....now ..if several shooters [a squad] disagrees with the MD and SO's call

the only thing that happen is that next year they will not show up..or post here

[p99shooter]

So, for IDPA to prosper, it would be in their best interest to offer some better guidance in this case...

Well, the guidance we got so far is that the final call is up to the MD. There's implied trust there between IDPA HQ and officially affiliated clubs. If IDPA HQ was really in this game for financial reasons, they could control things like this:

If a club goes maverick and upsets shooters, the shooters should pass it along to HQ. HQ could then squat on the club, and if necessary revoke their affiliation.

However, I never got the sense the IDPA HQ was in it for the money, although they are a for-profit business. It would hurt the local club more than HQ.

One question is would clearer rules, on steel or anything else, make it easier to attract new shooters to the sport?

[Fireant]

So, for IDPA to prosper, it would be in their best interest to offer some better guidance in this case...

One question is would clearer rules, on steel or anything else, make it easier to attract new shooters to the sport?

Easier to attract new shooters? probably not. Easier to keep the shooters we have? YES!

[p99shooter]

Easier to attract new shooters? probably not. Easier to keep the shooters we have? YES!

I don't know too many shooters that are anxious about the current rules on steel. It never comes up in a match. Sure, there have been times that steel failed to fall, and the SO stopped the shooter and checked the steel. It was usually a result of a loose lock nut on the popper.

Maybe it would make a good poll: Are you comfortable with current IDPA rules on steel targets?

[rooster cogburn]

IF YOU GET INTO A GUNFIGHT AND SHOOT THE OTHER GUY A GOOD SOLID HIT AND HE DOES NOT FALL. ARE YOU GOING TO WALK AWAY AND SAY HE MUST BE DEAD BUT HE DID NOT FALL OR ARE YOU GOING TO SHOOT HIM TILL HE FALLS? STEEL THAT YOU FAIL TO MAKE FALL IS 5 POINTS DOWN AND A FTN.

Edited November 30, 2006 by rooster cogburn

[Allgoodhits]

IF YOU GET INTO A GUNFIGHT AND SHOOT THE OTHER GUY A GOOD SOLID HIT AND HE DOES NOT FALL. ARE YOU GOING TO WALK AWAY AND SAY HE MUST BE DEAD BUT HE DID NOT FALL OR ARE YOU GOING TO SHOOT HIM TILL HE FALLS? STEEL THAT YOU FAIL TO MAKE FALL IS 5 POINTS DOWN AND A FTN.

+1 ....cause it is just a game, and besides life ain't always fair. No alibis.

[Scott R]

IF YOU GET INTO A GUNFIGHT AND SHOOT THE OTHER GUY A GOOD SOLID HIT AND HE DOES NOT FALL. ARE YOU GOING TO WALK AWAY AND SAY HE MUST BE DEAD BUT HE DID NOT FALL OR ARE YOU GOING TO SHOOT HIM TILL HE FALLS? STEEL THAT YOU FAIL TO MAKE FALL IS 5 POINTS DOWN AND A FTN.

+1 ....cause it is just a game, and besides life ain't always fair. No alibis.

Hmmmm.........Interesting.

So, because life isn't fair, and this game is training for real life ........ then we should be sure to keep this game and it's rules vague and inconsistant ......c'mon!

Edited November 30, 2006 by Scott R

[p99shooter]

IF YOU GET INTO A GUNFIGHT AND SHOOT THE OTHER GUY A GOOD SOLID HIT AND HE DOES NOT FALL. ARE YOU GOING TO WALK AWAY AND SAY HE MUST BE DEAD BUT HE DID NOT FALL OR ARE YOU GOING TO SHOOT HIM TILL HE FALLS? STEEL THAT YOU FAIL TO MAKE FALL IS 5 POINTS DOWN AND A FTN.

So, if you shoot 25 (CDP), 31 (SSP & ESP), or 24 (SSR & ESR) rounds at a popper that was set up grossly wrong and it didn't fall, you would be OK with a -5 and an FTN on it?

If it was the first target on a stage, you'd be OK with -10 and FTNs on all the other targets on the stage because the popper didn't fall?

There are clearly times when good judgement needs to be used on behalf of the shooter and the SO. This is, after all, a game. (Not real life, not training for real life).

Edited December 1, 2006 by p99shooter

[Crusher]

IF YOU GET INTO A GUNFIGHT AND SHOOT THE OTHER GUY A GOOD SOLID HIT AND HE DOES NOT FALL. ARE YOU GOING TO WALK AWAY AND SAY HE MUST BE DEAD BUT HE DID NOT FALL OR ARE YOU GOING TO SHOOT HIM TILL HE FALLS? STEEL THAT YOU FAIL TO MAKE FALL IS 5 POINTS DOWN AND A FTN

WoW! All the way from "equitable" to gunfight. Short hop, where the heck is Dirtypool when you need him most?

[Jim Watson]

The lawyers who now rule the country have got us thinking in terms of a rule for every situation. Not much room left for common sense and fair play. Pity. The common sense is that a Popper should fall to a solid hit by a caliber allowed by the rules. The fair play is that if it does not, it should be readjusted and the shooter restarted. All from a liberal (not Liberal) application of the Range Equipment provision of the rules.

Another application of common sense is that if it does not fall, shoot it again, your SO might not have been watching.

[rooster cogburn]

It was blustery today at the Missisippi State. We had a Popper that even when set as light as would stand up by itself in the occasional calm, would have to be hit at the very top with a heavy bullet to knock down when the wind was behind it. Lesser efforts and lower hits required it to be driven down. So we drove it down instead of carping and whining.

While that sounds great, that piece of steel should have been tossed as faulty or replaced with one that was not. "sucking it up" is never a good solution. Remember saying it's the same for everyone is not an acceptable answer.

What you haven't heard about this steel popper is, it was not the wind or a faulty popper. This popper was hard to knock down because it pulled two cables on it way down to activate two more targets. It was the same for everone and we were all told to shoot it high that it was hard to knock down. I shot it with a 9mm and shot it high and had no problem.

[Crusher]

What you haven't heard about this steel popper is, it was not the wind or a faulty popper. This popper was hard to knock down because it pulled two cables on it way down to activate two more targets. It was the same for everone and we were all told to shoot it high that it was hard to knock down. I shot it with a 9mm and shot it high and had no problem.

So if this target (Popper) was used with its attachments and there was some calibration criteria (as used in another game) in effect it (the popper) more than likely would have not passed calibration.

Do I understand corretly that because it "was the same for everyone" is justification in and of-itself in lieu of some actual calibration criteria?

[p99shooter]

What you haven't heard about this steel popper is, it was not the wind or a faulty popper. This popper was hard to knock down because it pulled two cables on it way down to activate two more targets. It was the same for everone and we were all told to shoot it high that it was hard to knock down. I shot it with a 9mm and shot it high and had no problem.

The "It is the same for everyone" is not an acceptable excuse for poor stage design; it's in the rule book.

[steel1212]

WOW, I read all 3 pages of this because I was looking for this exact answer. I don't like that IDPA doesn't have a calibration rule for steel or an overlay but that is another argument I guess. Here are my reasons. If there are say 2 poppers on a stage, then move on to paper, I'm going to call my shots on the poppers and move on to the paper. I'm not going to watch and see if they fall. I shoot IDPA as a game, call me a gamer thats fine its what I am. If I'm watching steel fall I'm loosing time on the stage and I'm trying to win a match. If you put 2 cables on one piece of steel then tell people to hit it high to make it fall, well that is just BS, hit it in the calibration zone to make it fall, ok I can live with that. If still won't fall, or has trouble falling, with 125.000000001 ammo then it needs to be "adjusted" 125.00000001 ammo IS legal by the RULEBOOK.

Another thing I don't really like in reference to steel is the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. So if you have a new SSP shooter that is milking the gun bad and hits a popper lower, way low, hears it ring and goes on to the paper and then realizes its still standing. SO says I heard it ring, just give him the hit. Another example would be, and somebody already mentioned this, a shooter just nicks the popper and it doesn't fall. That isn't a good hit either but the SO heard it ring and just gave him the hit. To be on the flip side, use the nicked popper as a reference, the MD says well lets shoot it and see if it falls, the shooter SHOULD through a crap fit because according to the rules there isn't a calibration and they should get the hit....benefit of the doubt and all.

One final thing, somebody had said that steel must fall, and say it was set heavy, to simulate a dope head that would take several rounds to go down. That is just a bad idea, use paper for that and make everybody shoot them 6 times or something. A rearward falling steel shot several times is rounds leaving the pits, forward falling steel is knocking it back up, and if it falls on the first hit for shooter 1 and third hit for shooter 2 is that fair when your shooter 2?

Yes I shoot IDPA as much as I can. Yes I like the game. Yes I'm what some IDPA guys will call a gamer with my big magwell, that fits the box, my taking advantage of the rules to the fullest WITH OUT CHEATING! Yes, I know IDPA has its own rules and I abide by them but some just need a little work and I think this is one of them.

[nwb01]

AGREED !!!!!!! but will say no more for fear of getting the thread shut down !

[Duane Thomas]

But that is not in the rule book. If it did fall, what rule would you base your decision on?

This reminds me of a conversation I had years ago with John Sayle about why the original IDPA Rule Book was so thin, and why it keeps getting constantly bigger. John: "When we started out, we figured there were a lot of things we didn't need to tell people because they were common sense. Well, I guess not." I'm sure that IDPA HQ figures that how to calibrate a popper, and that a calibration check is only called for if the shooter hits the lollipop with a full caliber strike and the steel still doesn't fall, is not exactly high-speed, low-drag, state of the art information they need to spell out in the Rule Book.

[steel1212]

But that is not in the rule book. If it did fall, what rule would you base your decision on?

This reminds me of a conversation I had years ago with John Sayle about why the original IDPA Rule Book was so thin, and why it keeps getting constantly bigger. John: "When we started out, we figured there were a lot of things we didn't need to tell people because they were common sense. Well, I guess not." I'm sure that IDPA HQ figures that how to calibrate a popper, and that a calibration check is only called for if the shooter hits the lollipop with a full diameter strike and the steel still doesn't fall, is not exactly high-speed, low-drag, state of the art information they need to spell out in the Rule Book.

I know what your saying but in a game with points and scores you can't just say lets leave it to common sense as everybody interprets things differently. If its in black and white then that is the way it is. If we go by your reasoning is like me playing poker and I have a Ace and four deuces and I call it royal flush...my common sense was that where I play poker deuces where always wild.

[Duane Thomas]

There seem to be two attitudes toward the IDPA Rule Book: (1) The IDPA HQ approach which says, "We don't need to hold people's hands and tell them how to do things that any experienced shooter already knows," and (2) "If you don't hold our hands and tell us how to do everything, you're not living up to your responsibility." And that IDPA Rule Book just keeps on getting thicker for the people who constantly need "more clarification."

[steel1212]

There seem to be two attitudes toward the IDPA Rule Book: (1) The IDPA HQ approach which says, "We don't need to hold people's hands and tell them how to do things that any experienced shooter already knows," and (2) "If you don't hold our hands and tell us how to do everything, you're not living up to your responsibility." And that IDPA Rule Book just keeps on getting thicker for the people who constantly need "more clarification."

So every shooter that starts out is experienced? We expect shooters to read the rule book then wonder why they are confused when they get to the range? Nobody said anything about HQ not living up to their responsibility. All we are asking is for rules to be black and white, cut and dry so that there isn't all the questions, variable, local rules, etc. I mean this simple question is 3 pages long with a dozen different answers.

[RobMoore]

If the popper doesn't fall over with a light brush of the hand, I lighten it. I don't see a need to stiffen them up so they resist 124PF hits. The chrono is there for that purpose. Lighten the steel up so that any hit puts it down.

...and we only need mention the word "cover" to know that not everyone's sense is "common". The rulebook does have .50 caliber sized holes in it, and until updated, I think a liberal interpretation favoring the shooter is in order.

Edited August 17, 2009 by RobMoore