Idpa Rules On Steel Targets

[benny hill]

Well hell, Grump. The point of my statement is that shooting a steel popper while it is falling..ie: at an angle - guarantees the round will leave the range. Its a lot different than just shooting over the berm. I would think that you might add to your list a number

5. Use common sense/don't be a dummy. .

Merlin Orr

Edited November 13, 2006 by benny hill

[Fireant]

[

Fireant: I still see a stronger case for the steel doesn't fall = a miss interpretation than for a "steel doesn't fall = an equipment malfunction and re=shoot interpretation. Your approach would swallow the rule with the exceptions.

After all, how much doubt is there when everyone else's 125.001 PF loads knocked it down but yours didn't? Jim Watson's description of events truly sounds like bad steel, and if I were MD I would throw out the stage for the overall match standings.

I don't really see it with the rule book the way it is written. I have seen 175PF .45 loads knock the calibration off for a popper where the next major load would leave the steel standing. I just shot a sanctioned match where the steel was never painted(not even at the start). It would have been a tough pill to swallow if they called a miss on steel when you heard a ding. The current rule leaves things unclear and for HQ to say it's up to the MD is no solution. I just want it out there to make people aware that by the book it is range equipment failure and = a reshoot.

[kdmoore]

While it won't work when the steel activates something else, at local matches we'll sometimes just call the hit and get on with the next shooter.

Now that I understand the "steel" rounds, I'm feelin a "few fries short of a happy meal". DOH!

[Fireant]

While it won't work when the steel activates something else, at local matches we'll sometimes just call the hit and get on with the next shooter.

Well that does not solve things either. It has affected the shooters time and then could be SO interference be issuing nonstandard range commands during the corse of fire. Reshoot would be in order.

[Larry White]

Regardless of the IDPA ,(or for that matter, USPSA rules) driveing down a popper is pretty poor practice and can become a safety issue. I have shot at several matches that a double tap on a backward falling popper gets you a early trip home.--------Larry

[Joe D]

I can see this molehill getting larger by the post. If I am the SO I check the popper setting every three or four shooters. All it takes is resetting the popper and tapping it with your hand. I have never seen anyone "calibrate" the popper with a gun. Total waste of time IMO.

Most poppers I have seen have worn out pins and no lock nuts. If the ground is soft the angle will change anyway. My wife and I shoot either an IDPA or IPSC match every weekend. It is a total non-event.

Geez just set it where it takes a light push to knock it over.

Jim, what stage was that? My 125.0000 pf loads took everything down. If it was the one with the two dropping walls the problem was not how it was set. There was not enough slack in the cables. You need a little slack so the popper can start falling.

The only time I can recall asking for a re-shoot was at Hartselle. Remember the "Boat" stage. They used two of the funky flopping steel targets that they have. I hit one three times with a 200 gr .45ACP bullet screaming along at 650 fps. I have that on video. You can hear the pings.

Edited November 13, 2006 by Joe D

[GmanCdp]

Because of the lack of steel many IDPA only guys don't realize how heavy they set the steel. By the rules I would have to argue with the fresh coat of paint telling the story. Any hit showing on the steel and it still standing would have to be a range failure and a reshoot issued. Good hits and bad hits can not be called. It either hit the steel and it fell or it hit the steel and did not fall thus a reshoot. That's the point here, since there is no procedure spelled out in the rules and the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter, we need to remember that and not try to impose our bias from the other sports that we shoot.

sounds like a good enough answer..in that you answered you own question...has this happened to you as ,in several times in one couse of fire,or did it happen at a local match?? or did this happen to you at a state level match??? or are you asking the question for the sake an arguement in this topic....we just held a state shoot this past weekend and only had to stop a shooter once,because the steel plate flipped sideways to a position to where the shooter could not engage it...so it was left up to the SO to stop the shooter to get a reshoot if needed...

By the rules I would have to argue with the fresh coat of paint telling the story

does it say anywhere in the rule book to spray each steel target after each shooter

now..if a shooter hits a 32 "popper 2 inches from the base,is that a calibration problem??

i guess the next time i use poppers in a match,from the 6",8" circle part of the popper down..i'll paint it back as in true hard cover ..sometime s on steel if you hit it real low..it may not fall or even move at all..

Edited November 13, 2006 by GmanCdp

[Fireant]

One year ago exactly this was a huge issue at my first sanctioned IDPA match. The arguements it caused were mainly due to people not knowing what the rule book said. I just shot this years match and it happened to at least one shooter on my squad and I was able to get him a reshoot with no fuss this time. I'm just wanting to point out the way the IDPA rulebook reads and not our personal thoughts etc. As long as there is no calibration set up in the rules like another sport has and the statement that the bennifit of the doubt goes to the shooter it should = a reshoot every time dispite what our personal fellings maybe.

[GmanCdp]

+1 then... a reshoot is needed every time or get the MD over there and have him set it..no need to throw out a stage if it happened once or twice..let them reshoot it..

actually i think the rule book may have a typo in it..maybe... maybe not..depending on the COF and placement of the steel...i shot a local match,where as the MD had a 24" piece of

steel set behind the barrell and by the time a shooter got to that P area,they had forgot it and moved on, hence the 7.5 penalty would go into effect.. if something goes wrong in the COF,due to a stage prop,then dont even question the shooter..just reshoot it..but if a stage prop is designed to react slow, on purpose, and the shooter just stands there...then.... ..... some other shooting sports have a more detailed rulebook then IDPA does..that can be good or bad...i'd hate the tought of trying to run a match and have a shooter pull out a 6 pound book and try to desipher every page in detail while other shooters are just standing there...that's what rangemasters and md's are for..along with the shooter, after he has left the firing line

[kdmoore]

While it won't work when the steel activates something else, at local matches we'll sometimes just call the hit and get on with the next shooter.

Well that does not solve things either. It has affected the shooters time and then could be SO interference be issuing nonstandard range commands during the corse of fire. Reshoot would be in order.

I hear you fireant, but the local matches it works well, as long as the shooter knows that a any hit is acceptable. Thus, the SO call is more of a confirmation that the hit has been made, but the faster shooters have moved on, hearing the shot and knowing that it's good.

Certainly isn't an optimal solution tho.

[rooster cogburn]

STEEL THAT DOES NOT FALL IS 5POINTS DOWN AND A FTN.

[Fireant]

Care to back it up with a rule? We are talking about steel that is hit, but does not fall. Remember we are talking IDPA rules here.

[COF]

Out of Appendix 9 - Target

"C. Steel.

Various steel targets, such as 8” round discs, Pepper Poppers, etc., can occasionally be used for IDPA competition. Steel targets should not be shot at distances closer than ten (10) yards. The entire steel target is considered a five (5) point zone (-0 if hit). If a steel target is not hit or in the case of a knock down target, not knocked down, the target will be scored as a miss (-5 points = 2.5 sec.) and will also incur a failure to neutralize penalty of 5 seconds if the stage is scored standard Vickers Count. Failure to properly neutralize a steel target will result in 7.5 seconds being added to the competitor’s raw time. (See Appendix FOUR-Scoring-A Vickers Count)"

[RickB]

We always include "steel must fall to score" in the course description. We set the steel light enough that it should drop with any full-caliber hit. If it doesn't drop, the shooter has to shoot it some more. If a shooter hits the same steel target three times, and it's still standing, I'll (as SO) stop them and check the "calibration" of the steel. Assuming it's heavy, I'll adjust it and order a reshoot. I don't like to see shooters hitting a popper with multiple shots, as it can be dangerous, and it can also indicate under-powered ammo. When a shooter protests that they'd rather drive the steel down with three shots, than reshoot, I have to wonder about their motives.

[Fireant]

please read the beggining post in the thread. There is no calibration spelled out in the rule book. It says that range equipment failure = a reshoot. Since there is no calibration test if you hit it and it does not fall, that's range equipment failure whether you say it must fall to score or not.

[Scott R]

Why not ask IDPA Headquarters for a ruling on matters such as this? Certainly it is not their intentions to have such a vague rule book as to cause misunderstandings such as this. After all you are paying membership dues, get something for your money.

[Fireant]

Their ruling was it's upto the MD. I'm just trying to make sure some of those MD's know that since the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter, how it probably should be handled.

[Scott R]

If it is up to the MD then how does that realy clarify anything until after the fact? This discusion in itself proves that there are varying opinions on how it should be handled. Shouldn't you know what the rules are before you chose to go to a match?

[Grump]

please read the beggining post in the thread. There is no calibration spelled out in the rule book. It says that range equipment failure = a reshoot. Since there is no calibration test if you hit it and it does not fall, that's range equipment failure whether you say it must fall to score or not.

Your interpretation makes the steel target rule of Appendix 9 meaningless. There is a stronger argument for an IMPLIED rule that knockdown steel targets must fall to 125 PF ammo.

Consider this scenario: a dozen shooters including 3 with Glock 19s shooting WWB ammo clean up on the steel and it all falls as designed. CoF calls for steel to fall to score. Mr. Gamesmanship with his 125.001 PF loads rings the same target and it doesn't fall.

What's to doubt? Shooter finishes the stage and calls for range equipment failure. Okay, chrono the ammo for a reality check and shoot the offending target. It falls. It falls with that shooter's gun AND ammo.

Range equipment worked. What sounded like a hit was a bad hit.

No doubt. No re-shoot. Steel failed to fall. It's a miss.

Otherwise, you are creating doubt for every knockdown steel target left standing, in a way that makes other rules superfluous. Rules should be interpreted in harmony, not in a way to make some more "equal" than others.

"Doubt" should not be construed to mean any conceivable possibility regardless of how far-fetched. After all, the RO went into a time warp and didn't hear my second shot on each of those two targets! What you're calling a single hit is really a double! Twice! Doubt goes in favor of the shooter so give me the points!

[Fireant]

The way steel targets are set up will cause the senerio you give. I've seen steel knocked out of calibration by the privious shooter. Rules should not be implied, that's why we have a rule book. The timer will tell you if they shot enough rounds in the second senerio as well as the rules being more specific when it deals with paper targets. One "perfect double" in a stage maybe. Four or five No. As long as the rule is vague it will create doubt for every steel knock down target. There should be a rule change, but it's unlikely. It's easy to forget to check the calibration every couple of shooters, when it happens= reshoot, no problem.

[GmanCdp]

yes i know this is an idpa topic...but i've just got to tell what i saw at the uspsa match in memphis this year...i shot on a production super squad [that's my opinion] i shot lim 10 with a 45acp[just part of the squad..not the super part]..everybody else shot production 9mm 3 CZ's and the rest were glocks...any way on one 32rnd stage you had 3 real close targets..the a popper at 15yds that activated 2 swingers...anyway you could start off 3 different ways..shooter comes up and shoots the steel then stops..because it didnt fall.....well the shooter looks at the RO and the RO just looks back.....well clock still running...shooter calls for a range malfunction...RO calls MD up he comes pulls out his polymer 9mm ..fires 1 shot steel falls..it was calibrated as he shot it and it fell....shooter got all paper ftn,fte,misses,and whaterver they threw at him for stopping...i know it wasnt idpa but,just as others have said here..in idpa you get a reshoot for a range malfunction..

nipping,nicking,almost got it ,the steel,and not getting a solid hit will not get you a reshoot...by the way...next time while pasting targets and resetting steel...why don't you finger test the steel to make sure it's ok..

[Allgoodhits]

There is no alibi for a light load, sometimes sh_t happens! A string of rounds may meet PF, but what if one of the light rounds was the one that hit the popper, and it didn't fall? Well it is 7.5 seconds added period.

Set up the stage, calibrate the popper with whatever base load you want. Then take a trigger pull gauge and measure the resistance it takes to make it topple. That will get the calibration test within ounces, and consistent for the match. If a "hit" doesn't topple the steel, bring out the trigger pull gauge. If it measures what the setup was then add 7.5 seconds and move on. If it measures heavier and it was a visible 100% hit, score it as a hit. If in doubt after this grant a reshoot. I'm with IDPA HQ leave it up to the MD. If the MD is that bad, then recalibrate the MD.

My .02

[Fireant]

Great ideas guys but the current rule book does not support it. The USPSA shooter should have known to complete the stage then call for the calibration just in case it did fall. that way he would not get all the FTE and misses. Come on now seriously use a trigger pull gauge for calibrating steel it's hard enough to get reliable readings on a gun with them let alone a popper. Once again we need to back things up with the rule book not our own opinions.

Edited November 29, 2006 by Fireant

[GmanCdp]

be nice..and try this link.. http://www.idpa.com/ ...maybe the next time they redo the rule book...you can play your part and ask them to add a better clarification....or try your A.C. and just put it in writing for him to submitt to the next A.C. meeting...

[Allgoodhits]

Great ideas guys but the current rule book does not support it. The USPSA shooter should have known to complete the stage then call for the calibration just in case it did fall. that way he would not get all the FTE and misses. Come on now seriously use a trigger pull gauge for calibrating steel it's hard enough to get reliable readings on a gun with them let alone a popper. Once again we need to back things up with the rule book not our own opinions.

You don't use the trigger pull gauge to calibrate the steel. You use it to "measure" the resistance it took to make it fall, after you have used whatever method you used to set it up, i.e. a 9mm at 10 yds, a push with the finger, a light smack with a hammer or whatever. The trigger pull gauge permits you to measure a consistent energy requirement to topple the steel. Much more accurate than a poke with a finger etc. Recalibration if needed is easy, quick and repeatable. Seems to me if a trigger pull gauge is used to get accurate repeatable measurements for 1-3 lbs or so, if certainly should be usable enough to measure what it takes to pull (topple) a popper enough so that it will fall. The gauge will even reveal (hold) the measurement for the shooter to see. When I use a trigger pull gauge, if the reading isn't pretty consistent it is the trigger not the gauge, but then again when I have a bad day shooting, typically I find the problem in a mirror, not my gun bag.

When a shooter questions the fail to fall, then you check the resistance (quickly and easily) to see if it was the same as it was when the match was set up. If it is the same, then it was a bad hit, or a soft load. It diesn't matter what the resistance is, as long as it is the same for all competitors. That's called being fair. And yes, fair is a good thing.

Edited November 29, 2006 by Allgoodhits