Simple Production Division Pistol Rules

[Singlestack Wonder]

Rather than revising, adding sub-paragraphs and sections to, etc., to the current Production rules, let's re-think the matter.

Lets see now................hmmmm...........OK!

The Production Division was created as a place for factory production pistols to compete. With that said, what about minimalizing the rules to a few specific points. Below is my suggested 14 Production Division pistol rules.

1) The manufacturer must have produced and made available to the general public for a period of now less than one year, 2000 units. This would include the same pistol model while chambered in various calibers.

2) No external modifications allowed (i.e. slide lighting, frame checkering, stippling, or re-contouring).

3) Sights may be replaced with sights of the notch and post type. Replacement sights must fit in the factory provided mounting format (i.e. dovetails, screwed on, etc.). The slide may not be modified in any way in an attempt to accommodate aftermarket sights (i.e. No Bomar cuts on XD's or Glocks). Fiber optic sights are allowed provided they fit in the factory mounting provisions.

4) The trigger must be double action.

5) The trigger action may be polished to improve function.

6) The trigger travel action may not be modified in anyway. It must travel the complete, factory produced, distance. No modifications can be made in an attempt to reduce take-up travel (i.e. shortening the trigger take-up on a Glock or XD to make it almost SA type).

7) Springs may be changed with aftermarket versions.

8) No add-on magwells may be installed on the pistol. This includes "Grip Plugs". Modifying the existing grip in an attempt to enlarge the grip opening is also prohibited.

9) No add-on weights (internal or external) of any kind are allowed.

10) Guide rods must be of the factory type and material (i.e. plastic for Glock).

11) The power factor requirement for the division is 125.

12) Any caliber may be used provided it generates the required power factor out of a 5" barrel.

13) A maximum of 10 rounds may be loaded into magazines. During the LAMR command, it is permitted to have 11 rounds in the mag that is loading the gun. All reload mags are limited to 10 rounds.

14) All magazines (unless specified by the COF to load less) will be loaded to the maximum capacity up to 10 rounds (should a mag design only allow for 8 rounds, it must be loaded with 8 rounds).

An attempt to follow the Keep It Simple Stupid philosophy.

Edited October 27, 2006 by Singlestack Wonder

[L9X25]

What happes if a Manufacturer produces a pistol that meets the specifications you listed but includes many of the features that you specifically prohibit adding as part of the base pistol? Integral magwell, high end sights, added weight, etc..

[Bigbadaboom]

.............

[RogerT]

Manufacturers who present a model produced in 2000 units can as I understand these rule suggestions incorporate all these prohibited features. That's OK by me.

§4, no 5 lb. DA-trigger pull?

§ 12, does that limit the barrel length to 5 in?

Edited October 27, 2006 by RogerT

[open17]

14) All magazines (unless specified by the COF to load less) will be loaded to the maximum capacity up to 10 rounds (should a mag design only allow for 8 rounds, it must be loaded with 8 rounds).

An attempt to follow the Keep It Simple Stupid philosophy.

????????? "Unless specified in the COF to load less"???????

Doesn't that violate IPSC/USPSA rule 8.1.4?

[Caspian_45]

You will find that those rules would be unenforceable. Just like the ones we have now.

[driver8M3]

You will find that those rules would be unenforceable. Just like the ones we have now.

+1

[BritinUSA]

Frame = No machining of the frame. Grip tape is permitted as long as it does not disable stafety devices. Colouring (re-blueing, chrome) is permitted

Slide = No machining of slide. Exceptions for fitting after-market, front post and notch sights. Sights must not be wider than the slide, sights may not extend more than .25" beyond the length of the slide. Colouring (re-blueing, chrome) is permitted

Internal Modifications are permitted.

Magwell restrictions as already listed

[EricBudd]

4) The trigger must be double action.

What's double action? My SP-01 in 'single action' mode cams the hammer back at least as much as the striker on an XD. Can I shoot the gun cocked-and-locked since pulling the trigger performs two actions?

[ihatepickles]

I don't see those rules as simple, they'd be gamed before the ink was dry on the rulebooks. In addition, they can't be enforced so this is an academic discussion.

[Ara]

Being old to IPSC but new to Production, it seems to me that alot of these rules are a moot point as long as we don't have a trigger weight restriction. The problem I see is that we are all so quick to mandate "double-action" only triggers but the CZ and others are only double action for the first shot. So one can make the first shot light and all the other shots even lighter since there's no restrictions. How is this "Production" or even within any known spirit of the division. (whatever THAT is). How is this a "beginner's division"? I'm all for trigger jobs but its kinda funny how we're ok with the ultimate gaming with a one lb trigger but god forbid we put plastic plug in a Glock or bevel an old mag well. In escence, these double action pistols are disguised as a single action trigger after the first shot. Even the IPSC rule covers only the first shot.

[ihatepickles]

Production isn't a beginners division. There's no verbiage in the rulebook discussing the intent of any division. There's only the rules as they're written and I'll follow them.

[Singlestack Wonder]

What happes if a Manufacturer produces a pistol that meets the specifications you listed but includes many of the features that you specifically prohibit adding as part of the base pistol? Integral magwell, high end sights, added weight, etc..

Their gun can't play as they designed a pistol with features specifically prohibited in the division.

4) The trigger must be double action.

What's double action? My SP-01 in 'single action' mode cams the hammer back at least as much as the striker on an XD. Can I shoot the gun cocked-and-locked since pulling the trigger performs two actions?

First shot must be be with the hammer down.

Manufacturers who present a model produced in 2000 units can as I understand these rule suggestions incorporate all these prohibited features. That's OK by me.

§4, no 5 lb. DA-trigger pull?

§ 12, does that limit the barrel length to 5 in?

No they can't. And no, the barrel length doesn't have to be 5". The competitor's load must make minor out of a 5" barrel (identical to IPDA's rule).

[Nik Habicht]

Being old to IPSC but new to Production, it seems to me that alot of these rules are a moot point as long as we don't have a trigger weight restriction.

I know someone --- Vlad, I think ---- once proposed a compromise trigger pull weight for Production. 3 or 3.5 lbs, I think, and oh, yeah ---- that's 3 or 3.5 lbs. for EVERY shot......

That idea should solve the problem nicely......

[EricBudd]

I know someone --- Vlad, I think ---- once proposed a compromise trigger pull weight for Production. 3 or 3.5 lbs, I think, and oh, yeah ---- that's 3 or 3.5 lbs. for EVERY shot......

That idea should solve the problem nicely......

Ok, so we take the division that was designed for DA/SA guns and modify the rules to favor striker fired guns? I don't think so. DA/SA guns have a heavy first pull and lighter subsequent pulls. It is how they work. Most striker fired guns have a single pull weight. If a DA gun has a SA pull over 3 1/2 pounds, you know the DA pull is going to suck compared to a striker gun that has a 3 1/2 pull for every shot. How about we keep production for the DA/SA guns and all the striker fired guns with 2 - 3 lb pulls for every shot can just move to L-10 or Limited?

Everyone wants to modify the rules to 'help' their gun platform. Since Production seems to be working just fine - lets just leave it alone. Go and screw around with someone elses division. Maybe restrict Open mags to 165mm or require a 4 lb pull for single stack!

[RogerT]

If you consider the differencies between USPSA and IPSC Production rules "working fine" this thread can be closed and forgotten

And I'm a Revo-shooter who used to shoot IPSC Production, by the way

[EricBudd]

If you consider the differencies between USPSA and IPSC Production rules "working fine" this thread can be closed and forgotten

That would be fine too. I'm OK with USPSA production as it stands now. I'm also OK with IPSC production. My gear works for both. I shoot an 18+1 9mm with all factory parts and sights. Heck, IPSC production rules would help me out. I just think that the rules work fairly well and most guns are competitive under the rules if the shooter does their job. I don't want to see members 'loose out' if the rules change.

I know some shooters think that production is becoming Limited - Minor, but I don't think that is true. You could get the gun of any of the top 5 shooters at the Production Nationals for under $1k. Heck, Angus will modify a stock Sp-01 to be identical to his gun for $850 (including the new gun). Dave S. shoots a mostly stock Glock with $75 aftermarket sights. I can't imagine that sights and a trigger job on TGO's XD would cost more than $300.

If the rules need to be 'cleaner', fine. Just don't change a division that is working and, in the process, screw over our current members.

[Chuck D]

Singlestack Wonder has a "better than average" handle on things.... well thought out.

Critical issues for me....

1. Mag Cap restrictions stay at 10 rounds.

2. External modifications remain a no-no.

3. Allow aftermarket finishes

4. No trigger pull restrictions (a real PITA for match staff).

5. Reasonable manufacturing quotas

6. Gun must be available in an "off the shelf" fashion and advertised in a product catalog.

(Not like the 5906 5inch Performance Center "custom" example).

There REALLY is something wrong with the 800 dollar plus "factory gun" in my opinion....

Edited October 28, 2006 by Chuck D

[Chuck D]

"I don't see those rules as simple, they'd be gamed before the ink was dry on the rulebooks. In addition, they can't be enforced so this is an academic discussion."

All rules suffer from this problem but all rules can be enforced if people want them to be enforced.

Edited October 28, 2006 by Chuck D

[Singlestack Wonder]

"I don't see those rules as simple, they'd be gamed before the ink was dry on the rulebooks. In addition, they can't be enforced so this is an academic discussion."

All rules suffer from this problem but all rules can be enforced if people want them to be enforced.

+10

[moverfive]

Here is the question I have yet to figure out while reading through these posts - WHAT exactly is wrong with the current Production rules?

And I guess with that question goes - what is wrong with Production division as a whole that we need to change the rules?

Granted I am not stating that the rules are currently perfect - but I don't think they need changing, maybe just some better clarification.

I think part of this discussion centers around the thinking that Production is a beginner's division and the reading of too much into the existing rules......as opposed to the reverse problem of saying, 'it wasn't very specifically denied in the rules, therefore it must be legal.'

First, production is not a beginners division - it is just the easiest for new shooters to get started and for other sports to crossover. Hopefully that point doesn't need debated.

Secondly, we need to be careful about reading too too much into the rules. Milling the slide to install commonly used and available sights is not what the prohibition of milling of the slide was intended. Milling of the slide was prohibited to stop having skeletonized slides. And besides, can anyone say what 'unfair' advantage a Bo-Mar has over some notched sight? Using either is a personal preference and does not offer an unfair advantage in any shape or form.

Production division's rules just need to be better clarified - not changed, my opinion. If rule changes are needed - I would really like to hear what the exact problem is with the current rules and why they bad for competition.

[EricBudd]

There REALLY is something wrong with the 800 dollar plus "factory gun" in my opinion....

Why? A new Sig or HK can easily cost that much? The list for a SIG P226R is $899 and a H&K P2000SK is $929 (according to American Rifelman, October 2006). Not everyone wants to shoot a Glock. Heck, a new Glock 34 is $550. Once you add $75-100 for decent sights and maybe a non plastic guide rod your close the $800 dollar mark.

I just don't see that we should make production into a 'cheap crap' division in a sport where a stock Edge for Limited is $1600 (plus magazines and base pads) and where guys regularly spend $3000+ for an open setup. In comparison, a ready-to-race production gun for $800 is a bargin.

I'll bet just about everyone on this thread spends more than $800 a year on ammo.

Eric Budd

[Singlestack Wonder]

Production division's rules just need to be better clarified

If the Production division rules had started out as clear and simple as the ones suggested above, they would need no clarification. As the rules continue to be changed and modified to accomodate persons stating "Hey, I want to do this and it I think it should be OK despite what the rules say" requests, the Division moves further and further away from its intent. The purpose and intent of Product Division started the downward slide with the acceptance of tungsten guide rods and allowing DA/SA shooters to fire the first shot SA (cocking the hammer on the draw before firing the first shot).

[Loves2Shoot]

If striker fired/SA guns are inherently better (your suggestion by wanting to ban them) AND more popular why restrict them from the Division? It is VERY hard to limit guns by simple descriptions in rules because people will build a better moustrap if they know the rules.

[EricBudd]

If striker fired/SA guns are inherently better (your suggestion by wanting to ban them) AND more popular why restrict them from the Division? It is VERY hard to limit guns by simple descriptions in rules because people will build a better moustrap if they know the rules.

I'm sorry. I guess you missed the irony (of course, if thay are SA they should never have been allowed in Production ). My fault. Lets just leave the rules like they are now. Let the Glocks, XDs, Barettas, and CZ pistols all play togeather without changing the rules to favor a specific brand/style of gun.

If a traditional DA/SA pistol has a lighter SA pull than a striker fired pistol that is fine. They also have a heavy DA pull. The striker pistol has a consistant pull that is lighter than a DA pull but (maybe) heavier than a SA pull. Fine. Pick your poison and just shoot.

I don't happen to think that the striker pistol is a better mouse trap. Lets shoot and find out. I just don't want the rules altered to make one platform better than another because of the rules. An XD won production this year, followed by a CZ, followed by a Glock. It looks to me like the current rules are just about fine. I don't like Bomar cuts, but they have been allowed and should remain legal. I don't want a mininum trigger pull. Or a box, or a weight limit.

Just my .02

Eric