AR type rifle for newbie

[BigDave]

For you out there who are familiar...

Can someone reccommend  a good, moderately priced, AR type rifle?  I assume .223, but what about barrel length? type of barrel?  flat top? sights?  

The gun might possibly used for 3-gun type competition, maybe some coyote eradication, and a carbine match.

I am really looking for something to compliment my HK USP 45 and my benelli M1-Super 90

I apologize in advance to the broadness of my question.

[Bill H]

I recommend an Armalite or DPMS flattop 20" gun. I like the quality of these 2 manufacturers. The Armalite comes with a legal muzzle break and DPMS may be able to install one of their brakes when ordered.

With a 20" barrel it is easier to make minor at a match. With a flattop you can you a scope or add a carry handle for limited.Stay away from the bull barrels. They can be VERY heavy.With DPMS you can order a gun built the way you want for a reasonable price.You could order the 20" Hbar barrel, free float handguard, JP trigger and muzzle brake.That would make a nice package.

Good Luck!

Bill Hearne

[Flexmoney]

Big Dave,

Checkout  http://ar15.com/

They have a very active forum there for the AR.  Good, broad, base of knowledge.  

(Edited by Flexmoney at 7:05 pm on June 22, 2001)

[Chriss Grube]

Dave,

I saw on one of the boards a guy in Nevada was selling Bushmaster's for 600 and under new. It might have been over on the firing line. Don't you just hate it when the brain turns to jelly. No Pat, not Ky jelly either!

[Flexmoney]

Chris,

I saw the same post...somewhere.  I can't remember where either.  And, I can't seem to find it.

[kellyn]

I think most commonly-known AR manufacturers (Colt, Armalite, Bushmaster, DPMS) do a pretty good job.  I've personally had good luck w/ Colt, DPMS and Bushmaster parts. Derrick Martin of Accuracy Speaks fame does not seem to have a preference between manufacturers.  American Spirit's open and limited rifles are pretty nifty looking and handling but I don't have any personal experience w/ American Spirit's products.

Definitely get a flattop.  If you want to shoot limited/ iron sights, I would get a same plane rear aperature (Ashley or Smith), and a "national match" front post.  If you wanted to shoot w/ a scope/open class, Bushnell makes a cost-effective low-powered variable 1.5-6X, I think.  Ohterwise, I would use a low-powered variable made by Leupold or maybe Burris.

A free-floated aluminum or fiber handguard is better than the stock handguards - you get free-floating plus it's easier to mount a bipod.

I like 20 inch barrels but many prefer 16.  16 inch barrels may have trouble making the USPSA minor power factor w/ 55 grain bullets.   16's are handier around barricades but I like feel of a 20.  20s give you a better sight radius and a full-length handguard (unless it's a 16 like Bushmaster's dissipator (sic) or ASA's limited rifle).  The full-length gas system on a 20 is supposed to be more reliable and less violent that the short gas system of a 16.  Most of the successful 3 gunners seem to shoot full length barrels.

In a nutshell, I agree w/ Bill's advice.

(Edited by kellyn at 10:08 pm on June 23, 2001)

[kellyn]

Big Dave,

Stock AR triggers leave a lot to be desired.  I would invest in a good trigger kit - it will pay itself off in hits.  Single-stage triggers are probably better for most 3gunning.  Accuracy Speaks and JP are both good single stage kits.  If you want a 2 stage, get a Jewell.  

I would put a good trigger in whatever AR you get before it is even fired.  Start off right!  

[Jon Merricks]

Kelly, Sorry to get off the topic but what is the power factors for rifles? Do shotguns have them aswell? I guess I havent looked in the right place.

[38supPat]

I know that minor for rifle is 165. I've used that against the rifle shooters at my old club, my shooting partner and myself used to kick their butts with or open pistols (they factored 175 at the time easily making minor rifle)

165 = 55 gr bullet X 3000 fps / 1000

Pat

[kellyn]

In the 14th edition of the USPSA rule book, Rule 12.1.12.1 states that the major power factor is 340 and minor is 160.  Rule 12.1.12.2 states that the minimum bore that can be used is 20 gauge and it scores major - no minor in shotgun.  

These are interesting rules in that the have not really been fully exploited.  No one really shoots a 20 gauge but I was discussing this w/ Super Robbie and he thinks that w/ a tight enough choke, 20 gauge could be competitive except no one makes a reduced recoil slug ala Remington or Federal.  20 gauge slugs actually kick more than 12 gauge reduced recoil.  Perhaps there is potential for other gauges 20 or even (dare I say) 16?

As for rifles, everyone shoots .223 minor.  There is -of course- no way to load a .223 to major (69 grain at 4,927 fps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).   The most common major cartridge is .308.  .223 is certainly much cheaper, easier to shoot, and easier on guns.  But perhaps there is room for another cartridge that makes major but is much easier to shoot than .308: .260 rem? a hot .243?

Sorry Pat, I'll put an AR up against an open pistol, any day

[Patrick Sweeney]

I've owned and shot just about all the manufacturers, and the big difference is in who assembled them.  The latest one in the stable is an ASA, and it works fine.

If you load your own or use factory ammo, there is a small difference between 20" and 16" in the velocity they deliver.  If a load makes Minor in a 20", it almost certainly makes it in a 16", so go with what feels good in barrel length, and check velocity over a chrono.

Get a good trigger.  Tune your load or select your factory ammo to work with the comp.  Test your magazines and don't loan them to anyone, under any circumstances, unless they are willing to split their share of the loot with you.  I'm convinced magazines are inhabited by sprites or faeries, and if you loan them you'll piss off the little dudes.

Avoid unecessary junk.  Your mileage may vary, and what is junk to someone else may be advantageous to you, but use the winning shooters as a guide.

Above all, avoid Wolf ammo.  I have seen it choke AR's, trash extractors and springs.  The last class I taught we had a pair of M-249's just for grins the last day, and the Wolf choked both of them.

[BigDave]

Mr. Sweeney

 what is ASA? pardon my asking

[kellyn]

American Spirit Arms out of Scottsdale, AZ.  They are a relatively new AR manufacturer.  One cool thing that they do is build AR's from the ground up for 3-gunning.  They have an Open rifle and a Limited/SOF rifle.  Either would be a good choice except the limited rifle is not a flattop.

[Jon Merricks]

Kelly or any body,  Anybody use the DPMS A2 detachable sight. It mounts to the flat top. Does it stay in place?

Does anyone know if the Remmington 62gr match will make minor? I dont have a working chrono right now.

[Ross Chevalier]

I do, and it works really well (DPMS sight).  Last time I checked, the Remington Match does make minor.

Cheers,

Ross

[ErikW]

Yes I have the DPMS rear sight and it stays in place. Want it? I'd like something else.

[Jon Merricks]

Erik I will send you some info on the messenger.

Thanks Ross

[kellyn]

I use a DPMS detachable rear sight on my SOF/Limited rifle w/ a Smith enterprises same plane aperture or a Bob Jones aperture.  Never had a problem w/ it.  I do wish it had 1/2 MOA clicks though.

I've also used a GG&G MAD rear sight.  It worked as well but it's lack of elevation adjustment is a handicap.  

Your Remington match ammo  should pose no problem.  The ONLY place where it really might be an issue is at the USPSA 3 gun nationals.

[Jon Merricks]

I dont expect to be at the Nationals any time soon. But could you explaine why it may be a problem.

Thanks

Jon

[kellyn]

There have been instances at the USPSA 3 gun nationals where shooters using 55 grain bullets out of a 16 inch barrel have not been able to make the minor power factor i.e. shooting for no score.  62 grainers should pose no problem making minor.

I have never seen a local match use a chronograph nor have I seen a chronograph at SOF or the Mystery Mountain 3 gun - although you never know what to expect at SOF.  So I would not worry about it unless you're going to shoot the USPSA 3 Gun Nationals.  I never worry about it b/c I shoot 69 grain bullets at big matches but I shoot plenty of 55s at local matches.

(Edited by kellyn at 10:32 pm on June 27, 2001)

[Jon Merricks]

Thanks Kelly

[Ross Chevalier]

Since you folks asked, I rana  really quick test (quick means very light sample size in the distribution - statistically speaking).  The Winchester white box 55 grain .223 makes rifle minor (just) out of my 11.5" BushMaster.  16" and longer should be fine generically.

Chrono to be sure of course. YMMV

Ross

[TMC]

Lots of talk in here about making the PF with .223.  How does 7.62x39 do? Does it make major?  Major PF for rifle is 340.  Looks like alot of the production stuff uses a 122 grain bullet so it would have to go 2,787 fps.  I don't know the ballistics of this round but I have seen AR's set up for it and there is alway the Mini-30.  Any info.

[isto]

Hello you all, I'm a newcomer on this board. I have been reading it for a month and decided to join in.

About the 7.62x39: You will not get it to major for what I have heard. Here in Finland it is a very popular rifle caliber, since our military uses it and some shooters have done experiments. Basically if you wan't major, you should use .308.

i

[Even]

isto,

there were some guys from Finland at the Nordic Rifle Champs last week, would you happen to be one of them?

Even