kurtm Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 This one is being kicked around on sniperhide.com so I thought I would post it over here! For the purposes of L.E. prizes, who should be considered L.E.? Should it be open to anyone with a badge? Would that include TSA agents that screen airline passengers? They have a badge. Should it be guys thats main job is L.E, not a reserve cop who only teaches at an acadamy or has an honorary badge? What do you guys think? Let me know, as this has always been a quandry when arranging a prize table. I have seen a large trend tward anyone that can even claim a slight relation to L.E. ( radio dispatch, health and social services, etc) to put in for L.E. prises in an attempt to walk the prize table in more than one catagory. I don't think this is fair to the guys who are out there every day, but I don't have any idea where to draw the line. I am NOT picking on anyone at all and NO ONE should think that I am talking about "them". I just want a general guide line that most competitors feel is fair! Thanks KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I think that if you carry a gun and have the power to arrest/detain individuals in your daily duties, then you qualify for LE category. That's my take anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Back when it was recognized by USPSA, it was defined as "full time law-enforcement personnel with powers of arrest" Bruce (trying to get it recognized by USPSA again....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_pinto Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 What about our Military folks? In todays military, they deploy to seek out terrorists and apprehend them. Maybe they should be considered in the LE prizes as well. But like Kurt said, where do you draw the line? My $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liota Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Mike, You may be opening a can of worms you don't want to open. Every commissioned and non-commissioned officer in the military has aprehension authority. One could say we do patrol every day. We qualify. The military doesn't use the term "arrest," "apprehension" is the proper term. Liota Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_pinto Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 That is why I worded it carefully. I was in for 12 years. I am just across the SOJ from you right now working. Nice rain we're having. I do think active duty and active NG/Reserves should qualify for all LE prizes if offered at matches, if you all aren't already. Thanks for serving Liota and all others around the world. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted August 23, 2006 Author Share Posted August 23, 2006 What about citizens arrest power? Isn't everyone a cop in a way?? ( JSTP) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo radley Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 What about citizens arrest power? Isn't everyone a cop in a way?? ( JSTP) IMO, and I mean *zero* disrespect, I'm would suggest not having vocation/occupation-based award policies, if I made the rules. Things like age and sex can't be changed (presuming no trips to a Thailand clinic!!), and it makes sense to recognize seniors, etc. But recognizing a specific profession gets trickier, as KurtM points out. In any event, I doubt this will ever happen in a sporting event geared around the use of firearms, and it bothers me not one whit, and I'm pleased that anyone who works hard and serves his or her country and community get a special recognition.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 What about citizens arrest power? Isn't everyone a cop in a way?? ( JSTP) Citizens do not have arrest powers. They do have some powers when with an on duty law enforement officer. As a member of the Florida Highway Patrol Auxiliary I had no authority unless I was on duty with a Highway Patrol Officer. I had a badge & I was sworn & I carried a gun but I never considered myself to be a Law Enforcement Officer. I was primarily there for support/backup for whatever Officer I was riding with. At the time I was an active duty Air Force MSgt but I don't consider that as reason to qualify me as an LE. I think USPSA should bring back the category of Military (active duty/NG/reserves) & LE (currently serving & retired persons who had/have arrest powers). Why should someone who has/is risking their lives not be recognized when I can get a trophy for being 50 or 60 years old. What we are recognizing is people would are as old as Jeff Cooper & forgetting those who risk their lives. I got spit on going through the terminal & I have never forgotten, so let's start supporting those people standing in harms way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 so do fire department arson investigators, get to be LE?????? relax guys i'm not one....i'm just a fire grunt. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 Trapr, If you carry a badge and a gun and are post certfied, Why not? Ivan Ps Missed you and the big brown dog at the handgunner? Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 i missed not being there myself. but it uses too much vacation and money, and i needed it, i leave for greece in a few days.......european shotgun championships, as a member of the us standard team. see ya buddy trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted August 24, 2006 Author Share Posted August 24, 2006 SpecOps=10% of the work 90% of the credit RegOps=90% of the work and 10% of the credit I learned that from a "bigbrowndog!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 This is how complicated it is over at GSSF: "Definition of Guardian 1. The competitor is a full-time law enforcement officer of a duly constituted agency of a municipal, county, state or federal government, or is a full-time firearms instructor in a law enforcement agency or police academy. The competitor must provide official, current identification from their agency if he or she is a full-time civilian firearm instructor. 2. The competitor is an officer of a reserve or auxiliary unit of a law enforcement agency named above. The appointing authority must authorize the competitor to carry arms while on duty and authorizes the competitor to perform the same law enforcement functions and duties as full-time officers of the agency. (Unarmed auxiliary members of law enforcement agencies are not included.) 3. The competitor is a member of any of the United States Armed Services (Army, National Guard, Navy, Marines, Air Force and Coast Guard) serving active duty or in the reserves. 4. The competitor is a full-time salaried railroad police officer, penal institution guard, industrial police officer, bank guard or armored/express company guard who is armed while on duty. 5. The competitor is a full-time or volunteer firefighter or paramedic. 6. The competitor is retired from any of the above positions and receiving benefits from the organization." David C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 Now obviously I have a bias so brace yourselves. On what planet are prosecutors not LE? Let's see we decide who gets charged with what crime if any, who goes to prison, who gets probation, who testifies, who does not, what needs to be done on the investigations, what evidence will be used to try and convict. We draft search and arrest warrants, and some of us carry guns. Heck, my office had to buy me body armor because I go to the field so often. If the purpose of the division is to recognize people who enforce the law I would broaden the definition to LE to anyone who serves in the executive or judicial branch of government involved in enforcing the law and would include judges, probation officers, evidence techs, cops, special agents, investigators, posse members, and paralegals. Even the 911 operators! All of whom are essential in LE. Without one the others are worthless. I would not have a requirement that the person be authorized to carry a gun. Some prosecutors can and do, others can't and don't. Same with probation officers. Az recognizes prosecutors as LE but Iowa law may not. Az law allows probation officers to be armed but Oregon law may not. I would not have a division that was so determinant by conflicting state laws. I would not limit the division to full time. I would allow retired and reserve to play. Recognition for past service is important and if someone wants to go through all the trouble to be a posse man or get a reserve commision so they can be in the LE division, then more power to them. I would not consider Military to be law enforcement but I am ALL for having a Military Division. We could have Civilian Law Enforcement Division and a Military Division. If you want it to be limited to Policemen, then call it Police Officer class, not LE. But definitely no firemen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_pinto Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 I think that about does it. If us shooters can't come to a consencus on who would qualify, how could the BOD? Any exclusionary rulings will be sure to pi$$ certain groups off. One match, one prize table sounds good to me. I usually just sit there and watch other people get stuff though so it really doesn't matter to me! KellyN, I'm not completely disagreeing with you, but when the National Guard went to New Orleans, the were the only law enforcement out there. Iraq, the only police. Now the grossely under manned border patrol...... But I think that is a whole other thread. I do agree though, no former Marine Armorers though!!! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straightshooter1 Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 kellyn-I thought I was the only prosecutor on this forum. Here in Florida, under Chapter 790 (the firearms section) we are LEOs but, of course, don't have the power to arrest. Seems pretty clear (at least to the lawyer in me) that under the GSSF definition at least a Florida prosecutor would qualify. Never got around to shooting GSSF, though. Actually, as far as USPSA, I don't see why there needs to be a special class for LEOs. Seems to me, if there is, they should shoot what they carry in their duty (uniform or plain clothes) holsters. They'd be competitive in their class/division or whatever it was titled. If they did not choose to shoot with their carry rigs, they could shoot whatever fit in their division, just no special award/prize, etc. for being a LEO. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmap Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 Being a current LEO I will firmly state that I believe that an LE Class should be police officers, federal agents, and other members of the community who are officially entitled to the powers of arrest. This should include retired persons that were employed in a LE capacity. I will at least partially disagree with Kelly (know him - shoot at the same club - great shooter- heck of a nice guy). I believe that 911 operators, paralegals, lab/evidence techs, judges, communication officers, LECA's, and some others mentioned are more than important,......they are vital. All the aforementioned are family and are in the same community but saying they are LE is like calling a cameraman an actor or calling the guy who holds the spitbucket in a boxer's corner the world champ. One needs the other but they are NOT the same. I freely admit I couldn't do their jobs. I couldn't do any of these jobs. Having a degree in any type of criminal justice or law doesn't qualify either (and I have one, BA from Univ. of TN). My life relies on communication personnel and it is appreciated more than they know. As a matter of fact they are very much underappreciated. The difference is I have 6 classmates who have been in shootings and I know many others in my profession as well. I have 2 very good friends who have been forced to take a life. How many judges or paralegals have kicked a door in, took a bullet, been in a pursuit, or most importantly MADE AN ARREST? As for military, they more than deserve their own recognition. A military class would be great and in my opinion is the most important of all. And no, I was never in the military but I have the utmost respect for all the branches of our military. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 Once a Marine always a Marine, armorer or not. I see that this is realy convoluted. I guess for the purposses of the prize table I wouldn't recognize it, but an award might be a good idea, that way the hi L.E.could sport some wood (plaque) I didn't mean to stir the pot, nor did I pick on ANYONE, this means you Mr. Moderator. I think you would agree that at the last match we attended together the high L.E. was more than a bit of a strech. I don't really consider them L.E. do you? I mean they both build stuff for a living, not enforce, comunicate, prosecute, chose jurries etc. What I have been seeing is people with a VERY tenuous claim to being L.E entering under the L.E guize to be able to gleen more prizes from the prize table. That is why I started this here post, and I can't resist; I carried Kelly's rifle once, can I be L.E. too KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 As a lawyer I cannot but help to retort, Kurt, I don't think there should be a seperate prize table for LEO class or police class or prosecutor class. Prize tables should be heads up. Well maybe there should be one for prosecutor class. Cash and lots of it. And you can carry my rifle anytime. Straightershooter1, Can you do an arrest warrant? If so, you have the power to arrest! Come on out the Az Police Games or Mesa Police Games. You can stay at my house and shoot the match. Prosecutors rule! But I disagree with you about one thing. Although, I don't think there should be a seperate LEO prize table, I have no problem with a match recognizing those who dedicate themselves to enforcing the law and making communities safer. So handing out a plaque to top LEO is fine with me. Mike Pinto, Good points about the Guard. Touche. Jasmap, Thanks for the nice words! I was not really saying that they were the same. Police risk their lives in ways that I certainly don't have to. I've never been shot at, have someone try to run me over (I just sent a guy to prison for 10 1/2 years for trying to run over a cop, who shot at him and missed!!!), kicked in a door (although I almost got to once!), or shot at anyone. On the other other hand, I'm aware of more prosecutors that have had contracts out on their lives than police officers that have had the same experience (not that that does not happen). And I can tell you that I'd rather be in a massive onetime firefight with the EME, MS13, Hells Angels, Mongols, Lindo Park Crips, and Broadway Gs than have the constant fear and terror that some criminal syndicate was going to murder me or worse my wife or family. Several Prosecutor friends of mine have lived though that hell and I can tell you I would rather be in ANY gunfight than go through that! Definitions are important. If we want to have a Police Officer class, then call it that. And I'm cool with a Police Officer only class. If we want to have a "LE class" then the tent should be larger. But we can all agree, no fireman or ex-Marine Armorers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Bob kind of hinted at an idea that might need a bit of fleshing out. Recognize anyone who has a claim, however slight, to "Law Enforcement". HOWEVER...they must shoot with an issue weapon from issue gear. None of that full-up STI in a cut-down holster like the folks claiming "LE" (and shooting a 15-round .45 purportedly under IPDA rules ) at the Handgunner, back before I realized that match had no rules. Same with Military. Run a M9 or M11 (or a SOCOM, for those pesky fellows with self-inflicted bald sidewalls) out of a flap holster or drop holster. Otherwise, thanks for your service, have a nice day, run with the rest of the nice folks. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straightshooter1 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Yes kellyn I can do arrest warrants. Actually I was a police officer for just under 11 years (patrol, detective and sergeant) before law school. And, to be clear, I am not advocating a special prize table for police officers, but wouldn't have a problem with it if they competed with their duty guns/rigs. Otherwise, they would be a real small class. For example, if only one officer showed up to shoot, he/she would "automatically" be top dog in that class, right? Seems wrong to me. Maybe it's just this area, but seems like less than 5% of shooters at any kind of match are LEOs. Probably way less. I'm a year or less from retirement and plan to do a little traveling. Maybe I'll take you up on the offer. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 Alex, it really depends on the department! I know of at least two departments that lets thier guys carry STIs etc. and they aren't small ones. I know a police chief that carries a SVI wiht a J.Point on it, and he lets his guys carry just about anything they want. I also would once again like to point out that there is NO SUCH THING as an EX Marine, you are or you aren't! As for Marine armorers, perhapse they should just go to the prize table first as that is usually how they finish anyway I agree with prosecuter class, but they would have to be able to quell 15 riotous Hells Angels by themselves...one riot, one prosecuter. Tie requiered! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 This have broken into a debate about prizes and who should be able to go to the prize table how many times. How about we debate the validity of recognizing a particular part of our society for an award similar to that given for Senior or Super Senior. Why did the BOD drop a category of people protecting this country but recognize someone for being old. In reading the Area 1 results, I noticed they named a Super Senior in each division. How did that fit into the distribution of prize table winnings. Did USPSA blindly follow IPSC in dropping these categories because ISPC has governments controlled by the military or dictators? If we can't agree on who is or isn't Law Enforcement then change the name to some thing else like Life Defender or leave LE and define who is or isn't similar to GSSF. Why do these discussion always go to what the prizes are or how many can I get? I was on the East German border worried that they could fire the cannon I was looking at, when I first heard the words "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 I have reread my original post, and it sure seems to me that this whole thing WAS about prize tables. I usually end up sorting out and placing out the prizes at several large 3-gun matches, and L.E. has always been one of those catagories where NO ONE was ever happy, hence the thread. This isn't about recognition with a plaque or placement, it is about who and how many times someone goes to the prize table. Be upset on a different thread that deals with USPSA dropping the AWARDS, not the prize table debate. BTW Ivan couldn't have fired that cannon as he was drunk and had stolen all the propelent to keep warm and sold the copper driving bands on the black market for Vodka money....but we didn't know that at the time KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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