Open Gun Muzzle Lift

[mmcnx2]

I'm a really new open shooter (less than a thousand rounds) with a brand new gun. I've got my loads running major(167pf) and the gun runs 100%. While I'm shooting tons of A's my speed is not great.

Last weekend another open shooter mentioned after the shoot that I seemed to have alot of muzzle lift. He also mentioned he could see me waiting for the dot to settle and the lift was a signifiacnt factor in my lack of speed.

After the first shot I do see the dot rise a few inches on a target and then drop back to zero. Given I have nothing to compare it to; I though I'd ask. Is there such a thing as normal muzzle lift with these guns?

I read alot about grip pressure ect, and was wondering of I need a form change. I expect it to take a while for things to improve but would like to be comfortable that I do not have a setup issue that is prohibitive to the process.

[RacerX1166]

Open guns will have a bit of muzzle rise with a few exceptions. I've seen the Dawson guns shoot very flat. My Brazos Pro Sx shoots pretty flat as well. The thing with open guns is to not load based on pf but what works in the gun. Depending on your gun, 170+ pf may be flatter due to increased gas output that works the comp better.

Spend some time developing your loads to find what you like and, more importantly what works in the gun. I'm fairly new to open as well (less than a year) and I can tell you I've changed loads 3 times already because I've found something that works better.

As far as technique, I can say that, while it's ideal that you see the dot on target for your second shot, knowing what the gun does will help immensely. For example, I know that, out to 1-15 yards with a certain load, my gun will cycle back to its original point of aim as fast as I can pull the trigger (if I have good trigger control).

Lots to digest and more to learn than a non-comped gun but, when it all comes together, it's pretty sweet.

[.40AET]

Bump it up to 171pf and see how it feels. You shouldn't have to wait for the dot to return to the lens.

[AZ38super]

Another thing to look at is the recoil spring weight. Mine had a heavy spring and I tamed down the flip a lot by putting in a lighter recoil spring. But be careful, to light and the gun won't cycle reliable.

Talk to the gun builder to see if they suggest a starting load and see what that does.

My gun is an older gun built for the old high power factor so I run a 115 grain bullet at around 172 PF to get more gas to work with and I am even going to try a bit hotter load again as well.

[nphd2000]

I started messing around with an open gun this year. (Well I call it an open gun, my friends call it "Glockzilla") Anyhow, it shoots fast and flat at about 174 PF. By the way it's .40 cal. (I hear the mumbles and groans)

[al503]

After the first shot I do see the dot rise a few inches on a target and then drop back to zero. Given I have nothing to compare it to; I though I'd ask. Is there such a thing as normal muzzle lift with these guns?

If it's a few inches on the target at your more than a few yards away, that doesn't seem like a lot of flip.

I've shot an open gun where the dot goes completely up out of the sight, bounces back down below the original POA, then go up above the POA kind of like a heartbeat, just straight up and down. On the other end of the spectrum, I've shot another gun that did absolutely nothing but give a slight push straight back. I thought my eyes were playing a joke on me or the dot was moving so fast that I couldn't see it but that what it did.

I agree with everyone about the 'right' load making the right amount of gas to keep the gun as flat as possible. My open guns perform best just around 171-173 pf, which is tough to keep consistent as the powder I use (4756) is very temp sensitive. Any more or less and I'll start to get some flip.

So, experiment with different powders, PF's, etc. to find the optimum load.

[Jaxshooter]

Try to develop your loads using Vihta Vouri powder. It is not as sensitive to temp changes as the IMR powders. Then when you find a load that works there will be very little adjustment in charge weights due to the weather. It also burns clean and meters very well.

[Flexmoney]

I think you just need to shoot it more.

Read up on grip and stance...then do Burkett's timing drills.

[bountyhunter]

Another thing to look at is the recoil spring weight. Mine had a heavy spring and I tamed down the flip a lot by putting in a lighter recoil spring. But be careful, to light and the gun won't cycle reliable.

Ditto. The slide acts as a recoil absorber (reducing muzzle rise) because it moves rearward "spreading out" the recoil energy over time, making the peak impulse (and peak muzzle jump) less.

Mainspring weight also affects this because a mighter mainspring allows the gun to unlock and release the slide from battery more easily.

You might try one of those dual action "recoil reducers" from Firedragon as they have a light spring weight which progressively gets heavier as the slide moves back.

Or, just go with a light recoil spring and a shock buff to protect the frame and slide.

[Ron Ankeny]

I've got my loads running major(167pf) and the gun runs 100%.

Cutting it kind of close aren't you?

[Chriss Grube]

yeah but after the first time he minors I'll bet he cranks up the powder some! just shoot the gun and get used to it. It is probably more poor technique than the gun.

[eric nielsen]

What Flex said. The fact that you see the dot up high and then put it back at your aiming point and then start another trigger press means that you have the sequence correct.

You're not yanking the gun around & over-anticipating like crazy in an attempt to stop the dot from lifting - that's a good thing, trust me.

All you need to work on is putting the dot back where you want it, in a minimum amount of time. Keep staring at the spot on the target you want to hit with follow-up shots and pretty soon the dot will get the idea it's supposed to go back there. It will happen for you without thinking. Just decide what you want the dot to do - really have a firm intention in your mind - and your muscles, vision, reactions, etc will get the job done for you.

[Radical Precision Designs]

Practice, practice, practice, practice...

Then tweak your loads some by what you've found in your practice. Then go and practice some more. Try some other loads for comparison's sake, (you never know if there is something that will work better unless you try it!)

So, basically: tweak and practice untill you find something you definetely love. Then stick with it, and keep on practicing untill you kick everyone elses arses.

[mmcnx2]

Thanks for all the advise, I do think the load is a little close but I'm trying to change only one thing at a time and determine the result. I'll try to bump it up a little in the next batch of loads, I loaded about 1000 at this level to give me something to practice with and try some of advise I've gotten.

We've also had major temp upswing here in the past three weeks and I'm a little conservative with a new gun that I'll go over the top. So, I may minor while I'm learning but at this point I'm pretty sure it would not actual impact my finish order, given last is still last.

[Flyin40]

I went from small pistol primers to small rifle primers and just doing that changed the recoil. I'm still deciding whether I like them or not.

Flyin40

[Garrett]

I think you just need to shoot it more.

Read up on grip and stance...then do Burkett's timing drills.

+1

It took me a while to get used to the way my dot moved when I started shooting an Open gun. In time, it became a lot more natural.

Practice more and give it some time.

[38supPat]

Are you seeing the dot rise or watching it rise? If your eyes are following the dot instead of looking to where the next shot should land it could be slowing up your return.

[blkbrd]

The dot will move its pure physics. You can tune the movement with loads, springs and grip so its a smooth up and down bounce and not side to side or dipping below point of aim.

I have watched open guns on slow motion film to look at movement and they all go up and down some. The difference is the timing, violence and what your eye sees from behind the gun.