Production draw time

[Ronnie j]

Being fairly new to the game I've choosen to shoot production with a Sig and fobus holster. I'm wondering how my draw times are comparing to some of the experenced shooters when drawing from a prod legal holster.

Consistantly 1.50-1.80 10 yrds IPSC a zone hit

Inconsistanly 1.30-1.60 10 yrds IPSC a zone hit

thanks guys

[GordonB]

My results a couple of weeks ago.  Target at 25 feet.

Beretta EII.  Desantis straight drop Kydex.  LTT trigger job.  Fiber-optic front.

Avg: 1.53sec  Best: 1.35sec

Glock 17. Fobus belt holster. 3.5lb connector.  Tritium front.

Avg: 1.48sec  Best: 1.39

Currently a C-production shooter, but probably will be B-class next month.

[Jake Di Vita]

Last time I timed my draws with a Beretta Elite II and LTT trigger job, I consistantly hit 1.1's with the occasional sub second draw. That was a few months ago.

Jake

[David Olhasso]

The draw time is important to be sure, but so is the split to the second shot.  A 1.1 draw with a .35 split is just as good as a 1.25 draw with a .2 split.

With a traditional DA/SA gun such as the Sig, the importance of the split to the second shot is magnified.  If you get off a great draw at 1.1 but you then must adjust your grip or trigger finger for the second shot, that great draw is wasted.  It is very importatnt to develop a good grip and insure that you do not have to adjust grip or trigger finger for the second shot.  

My draw goes something like: First clear the holster, then acquire a 2 handed grip, then start prepping the trigger (in the case of a DA/SA, this is very important) and drive the gun to the target.  Insure that the first and second shot are both As.  Concentrate more on the 2 shot time rather than just the draw.

My 'match' draw time with my Sig at a 10 yard target is about 1.2.  My splits at 10 yards are about .18.  My best match draw w/ my sig was .88 from surrender.

[Ronnie j]

Thanks for the info guys .I thought I was pretty fast, I guess thats what I get for thinking. The second sa shot has never really been an issue I've got pretty large hands so I pull the da first and the sa second with the same grip and both with the pad of my finger. My splits are fairly consistant at .20-.25 . The biggest thing I feel thats slowing down the draw times is seeing the gun and sights quickly, I feel like I don't  aiming the gun is in front of my face and has quit moving . I hear you guys talk about "driving" the gun and preparing the sight picture while pusing the gun out , but I don't even see the sights untill late in the presentation. If thta makes sense.

Thanks

[Duane Thomas]

Silly question maybe, but are you LOOKING for your sights early on? Or are you focusing on a fast draw and then, once you've got all that done, looking for the sights? By which time gun has been waving out there at the end of your arms for tenths of a second.

[Ronnie j]

Duane I think you might be onto something , I really can't say for sure at this moment what I'm actually doing when I draw. I try to use as much of my vison as possiable but still the gun just shows up in my line of sight.

[Steve Moneypenny]

GOOD day average 1.08 usual average 1.12-1.16

I totally agree with the second shot is just as important with production, i have seen shooters jerk the second shot, or take way too long because they let the trigger reset a long way on the second shot.

NEVER get a swelled head unless you just one nationals... and that will only last a couple weeks. there are sooo many good shooters out there, Olahasso from above, Langdon Sevigney, Haught, Harrington, Yost, Jarrett even if he is using a cheater gun, all shooting production.

and when you get fast on the draw, work on reloads

[Duane Thomas]

I don't understand the comment on Jarrett's "cheater gun." I talked to Todd at the Factory Nats, and the only mods to his gun were some sight work and skateboard tape on the grip. The Para P16-40 Limited LDA he used is perfectly legal. In fact, by using a Para without a mag funnel, he seriously handicapped himself compared to many other Production guns - and still won.

[Flexmoney]

I wonder about the "Jarrett's cheater gun" too.  I doubt that smoney meant it literally.  My guess is that he was referring to weight (recoil dampening).  Of course, at minor power factor, all those production guns should feel like shooting bb's.  

(Edited by Flexmoney at 7:39 am on Sep. 9, 2002)

[Steve Moneypenny]

It was a joke, i am a firm advocate of the shooter being the victor not the gun.

The Joke is referring to the trigger.. a 1.5# trigger in production... it is just... well, wierd sounding.

I also have a problem with the Para LDA being advertised as a Double Action, because it locks the main spring down when the slide is racked, and has no double strike capability, beretta, sig, HK, S&W, CZ EAA. all have to compress the main/hammer spring with the trigger pull on the first shot.

Just my opinion, if the gunfit me, i would be using it. but  it doesn't. so i am shooting my beretta.

[Detlef]

so Glocks are *cheater guns*, too? Maybe that explains why they're used so much in Production...

--Detlef

[Duane Thomas]

I asked Todd if there was any trigger work to his Para out at the Factory Nats. He said no. Some sight work "to get 'em how I like," and skateboard tape on the grip. That's it.

[Steve Moneypenny]

i stand corrected then, the LDA does have a sweet trigger. now to find my source of bad info and beat them

i honestly thing that the first shot should have a minimum o 5#'s in production division, it IS meant for DOUBLE ACTION guns.

i'm i don't shoot glocks, a lot of reasons, one being that they cut/rub the top of my hand.

[Flexmoney]

heeeyy...no need to make us Glockers dumb-down our guns.

It is PRODUCTION division, not Double Action Division.

[dirtypool40]

hell yeah!!! NY+ on all Glocks. that'll learn 'em!!!

Yeah, there are PLENTY of  DA or DAO guns out there with no second strike capability.  Para's stack a little right before the break, but I've heard TJ's is smoother and lighter than should be legal in OPEN!!! lol.

[Jake Di Vita]

(Thread drift mode on)

I was told a story about a cop who is a friend of a friend who has about a 16 pound NY trigger on his revolver. When asked why, he simply replied, "So my gun doesn't go off when I'm pistol whipping people." I laughed for awhile at that.

(Thread drift mode off)

[Million Mom]

I guess I don't understand something. Since when is an SA auto not a "production-gun?" My draw and hit times vary more with the hand start position or the range than they do with the gun used, but then I haven't bothered with DA trigger pulls since the early 70's.

[Flexmoney]

In this case, "Production" refers to the division in USPSA.  Out of the box double-action/safe-action guns, holsters(non-race) and mags behing the hip bone, 10 rounds in the mags.  Nearly identical to IDPA's Stock Service Pistol (SSP division).

[Million Mom]

I still don't understand. Is this just for cops, or why can't the SA auto compete? Is it because the DA's have no chance against the SA's, or what?

[Jake Di Vita]

I think they did it with DA/SA mainly because 1911's and SAO guns dominate basically every other division except revolver.

[Flexmoney]

I think it was more of an entry-level equipment and $$$ thing.

[Steve H]

I usually hover around 1.30 when shooting at our local tuesday night steel match. From kydex with the Springfield XD. When I practice, I can get it down to around 1.00, with good consistant hits at 10 yards on 8" steel or IPSC A zone. But it sure goes away when I don't practice with the gun.

I would have to say it is more the shooter than the gun. You can get really proficient if you dedicate yourself to your chosen/issued pistol.

Steve

[Bear1142]

Ronnie J,

Don't waste too much time working on your draws. If you can get them down to 1.3-1.5 seconds, thats fine for right know. It's much more important that you work on your reloads. Shooting production, you'll do a lot of them, as many as 4 on some stages. In retrospect, you'll only draw once on most stages (except for standards) and many times you won't draw at all (gun on table, in box, on "X", etc..). If you blow a draw, you'll add .5 sec to your total time. If you blow a reload, it could be as bad as 2-3 seconds. In a game where tenths and hundreths of a second are the difference between winning and losing, I trust you'll see which skill is more important. If you want some confirmation, look at the Area 8 results. I missed out on 4th place by 2/10's of a point in a 1,200+ point match. How many times and places could I have picked up .2 points? When I think about it, it's truly torture.

Erik

[Ronnie j]

Well, since I posted this question I've learned what Eric said is true , a few tenths lost on the draw is nothing compared all the other places I can loose huge amounts of time. Thanks for all the responses and Eric I'll see you next weekend.