9x23 Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 Speed kills! Shot this one yesterday. On the first string I engaged T1 with 5 rounds then T2 with 5 rounds. I realized I forgot to reload, so I reloaded and reengaged T2 with 5 more rounds. I checked the rule book after I got home and it looks like I should be penalized 50 points for extra shots and 50 points for extra hits. My question is that if those are the correct penalties, then I it would have been better if I had not reloaded and reengaged T2 because I would have only been penalized 50 points for each shot fired after the failure to reload instead of trying to satisfy the course requirements. (whew! that was long winded) Would that be a correct assessment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 Since you can't "take back a kiss", there should still be 5 penalties assessed for the shots fired without a reload. 5 procedurals for shots fired without the reload 5 Extra shots 5 Extra hits The good news is we can't receive a negative score for a stage. This rule has saved me a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mscott Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 There were 2 guys on our squad that only loaded 5 rounds per mag just to make sure they did everything right. I guess a slide lock reload costs a lot less than all those penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 5/5/5 is what I've have given you too. As for slide lock reloads, that never makes any sense. If you're that scared, how about 6 & 5 so you're not shooting to an empty gun. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 Or even 6 & 6 ............... How much damage could you do with 2 extra rounds ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 You could (should) have stopped after the ten shots and just had 50 penalty points for the missed reload. That would have given you a chance to make some points on the other half of the stage. This would have been the better choice. If you had shot the berm 5 times (next to the target) after the reload, you could have made a pitch to avoid the extra hit penalties. That's how I have called it in the past. Of course, after the first 100 penalty points on a 100 point stage it's kinda academic. It's just something to try to remember if you're faced with extra hit penaties in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x23 Posted June 13, 2006 Author Share Posted June 13, 2006 Thanks for the info guys. Walter that's the conclusion I came to after the fact, just take the 50 for failure to reload. I didn't think that fast and I sure didn't think fast enough to dump 5 into the berm. That's another good idea, but that stage is so close and fast if you have a glitch you're out of contention anyway. Boy, but I can't wait to run into it again! I don't see that many extreme speed stages around here. It was a fun change. A lot of anticipation from all the shooters before they shot it. Thanks again guys. Buzz, you reading this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Gaines Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 trying to find out what my national percentage is in limited-10, shot a 12.787hf on this one today. Does anyone know what the high hit factor is for this one? Thanks PK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chitlin Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Buzz, you reading this? Buzz might not be, but I am... Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x23 Posted June 25, 2006 Author Share Posted June 25, 2006 Yo Bobby! I thought Buzzmeister might see this because he told me he found this classifier here. I think we got the penalties wrong. It immediately went in the dumper on my classification. If you stumble at all on this one it's history. I've shot this one at 2 more matches since then. I was more relaxed the first time. I've come to the conclusion, I don't like it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
professor Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 trying to find out what my national percentage is in limited-10, shot a 12.787hf on this one today. Does anyone know what the high hit factor is for this one?Thanks PK You should be credited with a 76.85%, based on current HHF for L10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgsmith Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 All right you rule book guys,I Ro'd a guy on this stage. He shot the first part of course with no poblem. On the second go around his flying elbow on his draw contacted my arm with me holding timer. a very light bump. He continued shooting his first five rounds with all A hits. He then swung around to second target and without reload put his 6th shot on that target. As soon as he did that he stopped his course of fire and demanded a reshoot. I did give him a reshoot anyway but wanted to know from you guys what you would have done. ( 1) should he have completed course of fire? (2) Should I have given him reshoot because it was obvious that he only stopped after screwing up, (3) The rule book states RO [MAY] grant reshoot, not must grant reshoot. Was it at my discretion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott R Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 If it was enough contact for him to notice it then it was in his head during the course of fire. Which is a distraction and possibly caused the brain fart during the second string. I think a reshoot was the correct call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 (edited) My take would be to tell him that if he really wants a reshoot, he should think about it really hard since my opinion is that this is definitely USC and worthy of a Match DQ. If he fired the first couple rounds and stopped, PRIOR to his obvious screw-up, I would give him the reshoot with no problem. Since I cannot tell what exactly a "light bump" really means and a light bump to me could be a very hard bump to another. If he had kept shooting and finished the COF, I would have said in effect, "You were bumped, do you want a reshoot?" He has to decide before he looks at the targets or the time. However in light of the fact that he stopped himself, only after he obviously screwed up, and long after the start, I feel that there is no option but to score it as it stands. Suppose he had stopped and claimed a Squib? I feel that this is very similar. No reshoot. If the RO stopped him during the COF and said "Hey I bumped you, you get a reshoot, there is no option, that is definitely RO interference and who knows, he might not have even noticed the light bump and been really ticked that he was stopped. This is similar to the RO stopping him for a squib and no squib being found. The only choice is to DQ for USC. If we are to allow shooters this latitude, a gamer can always figure a way to skirt the rules and demand a reshoot. There was a shooter at our club that would, in the event of a screw-up, back into the RO and claim interference. This is not something we want to encourage. Sorry to ramble a bit, but I think that there is a very important point in all this and we have to demand Good Sportsmanship from our members. Hissy Fits and general USC cannot be tolerated. We don't need John McEnroe type of press. One last point. If he wanted to reshoot the stage since it was a classifier and have that score submitted, that is within the rules. It just does not count for Match Score. Jim Edited August 21, 2006 by Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 8.6.3 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply Key word here is "may". If, as the RO, you feel the contact was truly an impediment to the shooter, give them the reshoot. No one here can say whether it warranted a reshoot except you. +++++++++++++++++++++++++ There's also 5.4.4 to consider. It says that someone who unintentionally loses their eye or ear protection may stop themselves during the CoF. Except for that instance, it's generally accepted as a bad idea for a shooter to stop themselves. If the RO decides against a reshoot, their run at the CoF would then stand as shot, with all the appropriate misses and FTE's applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 All right you rule book guys,I Ro'd a guy on this stage. He shot the first part of course with no poblem. On the second go around his flying elbow on his draw contacted my arm with me holding timer. a very light bump. He continued shooting his first five rounds with all A hits. He then swung around to second target and without reload put his 6th shot on that target. As soon as he did that he stopped his course of fire and demanded a reshoot. I did give him a reshoot anyway but wanted to know from you guys what you would have done. ( 1) should he have completed course of fire? (2) Should I have given him reshoot because it was obvious that he only stopped after screwing up, (3) The rule book states RO [MAY] grant reshoot, not must grant reshoot. Was it at my discretion? It's definately at your discretion. The old rule did not give this latitude and in the past there were numerous cases of shooters finding themselves in penalty trouble at some point in a stage that would run backwards at some unpredictable moment to crash into an RO and draw a reshoot. I got pretty good at running backwards from these kinds of shooters. As the rule is written, the determination of whether or not a reshoot is offered or taken should be made at the end of the course of fire before scoring is done. This is when I offer a reshoot for light contact if it occurs. If I really screw up and impede the shooter, I generally stop the shooter at the point of contact and give them a reshoot If you did not stop the shooter, and the shooter did not stop for a safety issue (e.g. a squib, loss of eye/ear protection) he/she should complete the course of fire. If the shooter quits, score the course as shot then make your determination. The bottom line is that it was your call. You may have still chosen to give a reshoot (to maintain harmony, to uphold your reputation as a sweet guy, etc) but it definately should have been made clear to the shooter that they made an error. This is a touchy subject, because it does get into Unsportmanlike conduct. Pressing the issue can bring more grief than it's worth. If it's an honest competitor that just isn't up to date on the rules, it doesn't matter what you do. Give them a reshoot and it won't be a problem in the future, or don't and they will understand and it won't be a problem in the future. However, if you're dealing with a wannabe, or a poseur with delusions of grandeur that "demands" a reshoot and will otherwise make a scene if they don't get what they want; it's probably best to let them have their way with a clarification of the rules for future reference. Then make damn sure you aren't close enough for contact in the future. Anybody that resorts to these kinds of tactics to improve their scores won't amount to much of anything anyway. Maybe if they get sent home from a big match for pulling that kind of stunt you will be there to see the procedure. On a practical note, most modern timers don't have to be held terribly close to a shooter to be heard or to record shots. It is truly amazing how much movement and flailing around some people do getting their gun out or getting up from a chair or whatever, so give yourself an extra foot after "Stand by". Only move in close to stop a shooter or do the "Unload, show clear". If they have to take two steps backwards to make contact, the gallery will make the call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Reshoot. Those little bits of "interference" can take a few seconds to creep into the conscious mind...and f*#k up a person's run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 (edited) dgsmith, Kind of 2 issues. Anyone who beligerently "DEMANDS" a re-shoot can be considered USC, simply because as RO you are in control. The competitor should show you due respect. If they feel they are deserving of a re-shoot, they should ask respectfully. If they don't feel they are treated fairly, go to the MD/RM. But hissy fits, bullying or rudeness has no place on the range. This is not to say they can't be forceful in their requests, just respectful. The one's I find funny are the prima donna's who tell you that you can't DQ them for USC for an action. My response is try it, pay your money and arbitrate it and see if you win. I don't like to gamble, some do. As long as the shooter doesn't get beligerent, if there was contact I'd give him a re-shoot if he claims it bothered him. My usual procedure is to allow the shooter to finish, then when he's done ask him if he would like a re-shoot, due to my error. You never know if it bothered the shooter, or not. But, they must make the decision before hearing the time/score. At club matches if someone pulls something that seems fishy, I'll usually be lenient the 1st time and talk to them about finishing a course, then discussing re-shoots. If they made an obvious "move" to make contact with me after a screw up and then ask for a re-shoot. They will probably not get far. Though I'm quick enough to usually avoid even the most determined. I had one at the Area 3 this year. An activated No-shoot, hidden behind a door which activated the no-shoot, was obviously not reset when I opened the door. I never stopped shooting, but yelled over my shoulder to the RO, if he was going to give me a re-shoot due to the no-shoot. He yelled back if I wanted yes. So, I then quit shooting and took the re-shoot. But, I didn't take it for granted that I would get one. It was kind of funny (to me), though. In your case IMHO you did right on the re-shoot. Always give the shooter the benefit of the doubt. Flexmoney is right, it sometimes takes a bit to register. And some are more high strung than others. But it's not good form to stop and expect a re-shoot, the RO may be having a bad day and not want to consider it. Be fair, but don't get the rep as a pushover. Edited August 21, 2006 by pskys2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgsmith Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Thanks guys, I was kinda torqued about this because (1) this was just a local match we were both there getting ready for Nationals and I would have offered him a reshoot anyway after he was done with the stage. For him to stop after the obvious screwup and play the reshoot card kind of frosted me. I know he is a RO and maybe a CRO. (2) He lectured me after it was done to always use the rules to your benifit. I am the kind of guy who always gives the shooter a chance. This is supposed to be a fun sport, and I hate the gamers. As long as their is no safety issue and a local match, I pretty much let anything go. (3) The next stage I had my first squib since I started USPSA in 1988. We were both in the revolver division and he had to beat me no matter what. I know the rules are no reshoot, but most local matches I go to we let everyone shoot again, as long as it was not a safety violation. But a reshoot was not an option to him. (4) We had a pretty new guy with us and on the last stage the guy only had 6 rounds left for a 18 round COF. He knew that and just let the guy shoot his 6 rounds and score it. I had asked the guy what had happened on the stage , and after everyone was done I gave him my belt and gun and ran him for fun on the stage so he would know what he could have done. This guy really left with a better feeling about the sport. The other RO only wanted to beat everyone instead of help promote the sport. I am done rambling now. I will be checking on this site from now on to help me do a better job. I took the RO course last year and never sent in the paper work. That will be rectified. Thanks Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 The only choice is to DQ for USC. If we are to allow shooters this latitude, a gamer can always figure a way to skirt the rules and demand a reshoot. There was a shooter at our club that would, in the event of a screw-up, back into the RO and claim interference. This is not something we want to encourage. Jim Personally, given that situation, my response would have been "If you are finished, unload and show clear," followed by the rest of the range commands. Determine whether I want to exercise my discretion to offer a re-shoot before calling time or hits. (Most of the time, if there's been contact, I'd make that offer voluntarily, once the shooter was done shooting. Now if I encountered a real gamer, who I was certain was trying to get a re-shoot.......) Then score the stage as shot or rest-up for the re-shoot...... The shooter runs a risk by stopping early ---- but I'm not sure this situation will always rise to USC..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 (edited) Should this possibly be a new thread? Edited August 22, 2006 by ima45dv8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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