Pact Mkiv Chrono Won't Work

[Nebraskan]

I tried my new Pact MKIV Chrono for the first time yesterday. When I plugged the two screens into the timer and pressed "chrono" then "GO" it immediately started giving me two alternating errors:

"error-no start signal"

"error-screens trigger together"

When I twisted the plugs, I finally got something to the effect of "start string #1" Then it started beeping and "recording" shot 1, shot 2 etc every second or so with imaginary velocities (I never shot over it).

The factory said to replace the battery and be sure the wires are touching the ground. I will try a new battery this weekend and one thing I may have done wrong is having the wires laying next to/on top of each other going back th the timer. I will try again with the wires seperated from each other.

The guy said if that doesn't work send it in. Anyone else run into these errors and have any other suggestions to try this weekend before I send it back?

[EricW]

Is this a MkIV or a MkIV XP?

The error *could* be inside one of the skyscreen sensors. The leads to the sensor element could be intermittently shorted together. At least on the MkIV they were reasonably easy to dissassemble. I had one unit in house that was pretty poorly assembled and didn't work until I took apart the sensors and resoldered.

Barring that, it could be internal to the timer. I've had a couple timers in now that were poorly/incorrectly assembled and the leads on the IC's were bent over and shorted out. I have no clue what technology Pact is using on the new ones - whether they have retained most of the old circuitry or if it's totally different except for the case.

Based on your description, it may also be a loose wire or solder ball shorting out the input jacks.

The wires do *not* need to be separated. There is virtually no possibility of false triggering through induction unless they're lying on top of AC power lines.

FWIW...

E

[Nebraskan]

Eric:

It's an XP I bought from Brian last month. Just got the reloading room done so this was the first time I had a reason to try it. Your comments about the loose/bad wire or solder joint may be correct and the reason why the guy just asked that I send it back. He just asked for the sensors and timer. He did indicate that they are 100% tested before shipping which led me to belive that I had done something wrong.

Edited April 7, 2006 by Nebraskan

[shred]

My early MKIV XP does the exact same thing with a known-good screen setup (moving the plugs right over from a working Oehler setup, multiple times on different days/weather/light). Send it back.

Their factory test doesn't catch this defect (I called them and got the same suggestions about separating wires and all to no avail) I have a suspicion that the gain is cranked way too high on the sensors or there is a noise source in the XP, since they claim this is the exact same hardware as in their XP Chrono and I've made it almost work dinking around in a poorly lit garage.

[38superman]

This is a common flaw in this make and model.

Mine does the same thing and still doesn't work after sending it back for repair.

They gave me that same BS about trying a new battery etc.

There is a thread on the forum entitled "Pact poor customer Service, poor response" in the non-Dillon reloading equipment forum.

You should read it.

It's infuriating that they are still telling their customers that they are "100 percent tested"

and it's not a known glitch when they have the same issue reported to them over and over.

If you like, look the product up on Midwayusa.com and check the customer reviews.

There are numerous reports of the same issues.

There's no way they aren't aware of it.

Edited: Please note that my experience with this issue was limited to the Pro XP model with the built in printer. I cannot speak to any issues with other models.

Tls

Edited April 7, 2006 by tlshores

[EricW]

If someone wants to send me their XP, sensors, and skyscreens, I'd be happy to take a look and see what I can come up with for a fix. If it's a hardware issue, I probably can handle it. If it's software, well, let's just say Pact is not forthcoming with software assistance.

If I come up with something, I'll post it here on the forum. There would be no charge for the work on my end. It's sad to see people buying what they thought was a top notch product and having such fundamental problems.

E

[AZ38super]

I bought my Model 1 XP last fall from Brian and it has worked perfert from day one.

Must be a gremlin in the MKIV possibly. Best of luck with it.

[shred]

If it's software, well, let's just say Pact is not forthcoming with software assistance.

Near as I can tell, PACT doesn't actually have an in-house software person-- they batch up all the fixes until they feel it's worth paying whatever hourly rate their guy has and sending them all in at once.

[EricW]

If it's software, well, let's just say Pact is not forthcoming with software assistance.

Near as I can tell, PACT doesn't actually have an in-house software person-- they batch up all the fixes until they feel it's worth paying whatever hourly rate their guy has and sending them all in at once.

Why am I not surprised...

[benos]

If it's software, well, let's just say Pact is not forthcoming with software assistance.

It's really shouldn't be too difficult to understand why PACT doesn't disclose their software. No matter how "stand up" you are. They're just not going to do it.

Near as I can tell, PACT doesn't actually have an in-house software person-- they batch up all the fixes until they feel it's worth paying whatever hourly rate their guy has and sending them all in at once.

Actually that's dead wrong. (And is fueling this fire that doesn't exist at this point for this problem.) If a product is returned and the problem occurred "out of the box," like the "review function problem" with the new MKIV XP, the issue takes priority. If it turns out to be an actual software issue, their programmer re-writes the code. In that particular case, the software was re-written and new units were shipping with the corrected software within about one week of them becoming aware of the problem.

be

[EricW]

If it's software, well, let's just say Pact is not forthcoming with software assistance.

It's really shouldn't be too difficult to understand why PACT doesn't disclose their software. No matter how "stand up" you are. They're just not going to do it.

Brian,

I used to do software for a living, so yes, I understand the risk of giving away source code. But there are devices called Non Disclosure Agreements that cover these issues when dealing with outside help. Honestly, the software is the least financially important part of the PACT timer - the case, keyboard, and display are where the lion's share of the money are located. Those would require *at least* $100K to duplicate and that's not something most people have jingling around their pocket. And for someone with that kind of coin floating around, there are more profitable ways to invest it. Of all the commercial electronics ventures I could envision, shooting timers are just about dead last on the potential return given the investment. The fact that NOBODY has duplicated the PACT - and there has been ample time and opportunity - is testament to the fact that there is no profit in doing so.

I also feel that PACT grossly underestimates the value of a timer that can be essentially "Open Source" where educated users can modify the software to suit their needs, or choose from several versions from the PACT website and flash the unit at home. PACT is unique in that they have the capability to be the "IBM PC" of the timer world, yet they refuse to for reasons that I feel are fairly flawed. This is one of the few situations where I see "Open Source" being win-win for all parties involved.

Respectfully,

E

[Nebraskan]

I shipped my unit back to Pact Tuesday. I did get the unit to function with a new battery, (new one supplied with the unit must have been bad.) but ran into problems with the reviewed velocities not matching the actual velocities as I wrote each one down. Also the power factor conversion wasn't workig properly. When I was seeing velocities under 1000fps and PF over 180 with a 180 grain bullet I was suspect. Not sure if this is the "Review Function Problem" Brian alluded to, but may be. I sent a detailed letter with the unit to Pact and will wait for their response. Brian trusts them, so I will trust them. I will not perpetuate any rumors that I have heard. I will only report the findings based upon my personal experience.

[EricW]

I shipped my unit back to Pact Tuesday. I did get the unit to function with a new battery, (new one supplied with the unit must have been bad.) but ran into problems with the reviewed velocities not matching the actual velocities as I wrote each one down. Also the power factor conversion wasn't workig properly. When I was seeing velocities under 1000fps and PF over 180 with a 180 grain bullet I was suspect. Not sure if this is the "Review Function Problem" Brian alluded to, but may be. I sent a detailed letter with the unit to Pact and will wait for their response. Brian trusts them, so I will trust them. I will not perpetuate any rumors that I have heard. I will only report the findings based upon my personal experience.

Sounds like you might have a bad or incorrectly installed counter IC or memory IC. Seen it on a couple PACT's now. Sometimes you can desolder and reinstall the IC. Sometimes you just scrap the IC and install a new one.

[shred]

Near as I can tell, PACT doesn't actually have an in-house software person-- they batch up all the fixes until they feel it's worth paying whatever hourly rate their guy has and sending them all in at once.

Actually that's dead wrong. (And is fueling this fire that doesn't exist at this point for this problem.) If a product is returned and the problem occurred "out of the box," like the "review function problem" with the new MKIV XP, the issue takes priority. If it turns out to be an actual software issue, their programmer re-writes the code. In that particular case, the software was re-written and new units were shipping with the corrected software within about one week of them becoming aware of the problem.

be

Ah.. the guy I talked to on the phone at PACT said something like "we're holding off on fixing that bug (a minor one I was reporting) until we get enough to be worth paying the software guy". Maybe they need to have a chat with the tech support folks.

In any case, they've always given me good service.

Anyway, do we know if the "Screens Trigger Together" chrono problem been addressed?

[Nebraskan]

The "Screens Trigger Together" and "No Start Signal" errors seemed to have been rectified with a new battery.

[DJPoLo]

The "Screens Trigger Together" and "No Start Signal" errors seemed to have been rectified with a new battery.

50% of my Pact chrono troubles have been a weak battery. A fresh one installed does the trick.

25% of my Pact chrono troubles have been having the screens plugged in to the wrong jacks.

25% of my Pact chrono troubles have been me not remembering to push "Go" before attempting to chrono rounds.

What does this tell me?

That 100% of my Pact chrono troubles have been caused by me and me alone!

-Chet

[ima45dv8]

Mine has a distinct preference for FRESH batteries. It eats 'em like candy.

[benos]

Brian,

I used to do software for a living, so yes, I understand the risk of giving away source code. But there are devices called Non Disclosure Agreements that cover these issues when dealing with outside help. Honestly, the software is the least financially important part of the PACT timer - the case, keyboard, and display are where the lion's share of the money are located. Those would require *at least* $100K to duplicate and that's not something most people have jingling around their pocket. And for someone with that kind of coin floating around, there are more profitable ways to invest it. Of all the commercial electronics ventures I could envision, shooting timers are just about dead last on the potential return given the investment. The fact that NOBODY has duplicated the PACT - and there has been ample time and opportunity - is testament to the fact that there is no profit in doing so.

I also feel that PACT grossly underestimates the value of a timer that can be essentially "Open Source" where educated users can modify the software to suit their needs, or choose from several versions from the PACT website and flash the unit at home. PACT is unique in that they have the capability to be the "IBM PC" of the timer world, yet they refuse to for reasons that I feel are fairly flawed. This is one of the few situations where I see "Open Source" being win-win for all parties involved.

Respectfully,

E

I spoke to the owner of PACT regarding these issues. On the "non-disclosure" agreement - Case scenario: Someone, with no assets and nothing to lose if sued, signs a non-disclosure agreement then posts the software on the internet. Although shot timers and chronographs are a niche market - there are competitors. If timer/chrono competitor "DFE" suddenly has PACT's software, that wouldn't be a good thing for PACT. I know how much their software bill was for the MKIV XP's redesign, and although I won't post the amount, I can tell you for sure that it was quite a bit more than you might imagine.

As far as in-house programmers - they have their own on staff. The software for the MKIV XP is tremendously flexible. In addition to "fixing bugs," they can easily add almost any new feature. Which they are doing, currently with a lot of input from the paintball market.

And as it has always been with PACT - if you'd like to see a feature added to the MKIV XP's timer or chrono functions - tell them. Or tell me and I will tell them.

be

[EricW]

Thanks Brian.

PACT and I will have to agree to disagree. Personally, I don't feel like PACT is doing anything in software that's rocket science. Their software may have cost some bux, but their edge is really in the hardware. Hopefully they'll come to that conclusion on their own...someday.

E

[benos]

I shipped my unit back to Pact Tuesday. I did get the unit to function with a new battery, (new one supplied with the unit must have been bad.) but ran into problems with the reviewed velocities not matching the actual velocities as I wrote each one down. Also the power factor conversion wasn't workig properly. When I was seeing velocities under 1000fps and PF over 180 with a 180 grain bullet I was suspect. Not sure if this is the "Review Function Problem" Brian alluded to, but may be. I sent a detailed letter with the unit to Pact and will wait for their response. Brian trusts them, so I will trust them. I will not perpetuate any rumors that I have heard. I will only report the findings based upon my personal experience.

John,

They got your timer today - and were very thankful for the note you included. (Most notes just say "it's broke - fix it." After a brief examination, they couldn't say for sure whether it was software bug or not... it may have been a glitch from errored (stored) chrono readings. But thanks to your detailed note, they'll get on it right away.

be

[shred]

New batteries and plugging the screens into different jacks do not make the chrono work on my MKIV XP. I have been too happy with it otherwise to let it out of my hands long enough for them to fix it.

[benos]

John,

From you description, they were able to duplicate the problem on another machine - so a bona fide software bug it is. They said they will have their programmer get on it Monday. I'll keep you updated...

be

[Nebraskan]

I spoke to Ron at Pact at length today. Seems like a nice guy, answering all of my questions. My Timer/Chrono is on the way back today, two days after they received it. They made a change to the software for me. When in PF mode, the chrono shows the average velocity and PF on each shot, not the last shot velocity and PF. They changed the code to display last shot velocity and PF, as he agreed this is the way it should be. It also explained why the numbers I wrote down each time didn't match the velocities I was when I reviewed through the string. (Which showed each shot and PF.)

To Pact's credit, it did display on the chrono that it was indicating average, not last shot, so it was orking properly, but they agreed that last shot velocity would be more important than average for me when building up a load.

All in all, a happy camper. Can't wait to get it back and try it again.

[benos]

I spoke to Ron at Pact at length today. Seems like a nice guy, answering all of my questions. My Timer/Chrono is on the way back today, two days after they received it. They made a change to the software for me. When in PF mode, the chrono shows the average velocity and PF on each shot, not the last shot velocity and PF. They changed the code to display last shot velocity and PF, as he agreed this is the way it should be. It also explained why the numbers I wrote down each time didn't match the velocities I was when I reviewed through the string. (Which showed each shot and PF.)

To Pact's credit, it did display on the chrono that it was indicating average, not last shot, so it was orking properly, but they agreed that last shot velocity would be more important than average for me when building up a load.

All in all, a happy camper. Can't wait to get it back and try it again.

Thanks for the follow up John.

be