Saiga 12 Reloading Advantage?

[SinistralRifleman]

Here's a question if I am shooting against tube fed shooters (no speed-loaders) with a Saiga and 5 round magazines (if that's all I can get), do you think it will be an advantage?

[Wakal]

I don't think so, no, and I have been looking into this mag fed shotgun thing for a while now

The advantage (in USPSA) is the ability to run a flat-footed single-action load of 10 rounds, vice two speed and a half zip tubes (or one custom zip tube and one normal, or two tubes and two loose rounds).

The advantage (in "Outlaw" matches ), for me anyway, is to be able to start the stage with 20 or 21 rounds...and then load to another 10 or 20 in one action. Running a six-round gun off the start puts you behind the power curve with all the 9 and 11 round "tubers" out there.

With most stage design built by and favoring (sometimes by specific "hose the magfed guy" design ) the zip tube or hand loading antique-gun shooters, the magazine thing is not usually that big of a deal on anything under 15 rounds. Over that, and the modern guns pick up some time over the antiques.

11 round stage: no advantage

11-15 round stage: one reload all around, no advantage

16-21 round stage: one reload to the magazine gun, two or three to the old-timers...now it is interesting...

30 round stage: two reloads to the mag fed guys, five to the geezer guns...

The math doesn't work to the same advantage with five round magazines.

The only folks that would gain an advantage with 5-round magazines, in my opinion, are mid-level shooters competing against mere "human" hand loaders or mid-level folks that can't reliably hit zip tubes. And even then, every 9-round speed shoot would leave you and your six-round gun in the dust.

Just my opinion, of course, based on five years of running a mag fed gun. If only someone made Saiga 10-round magazines...

Alex

Edited April 6, 2006 by Wakal

[jhgtyre]

I split this off from the other Saiga thread because I thought it was worth its own thread.

Hmm, you would have to reload almost twice as often but the reloads should be faster. I think it might be a wash. There could be some disadvantages to the Saiga in this scenario since you now have potentially equivalent reload times and issues w/ select slug situations. Good question.

-ld

[SinistralRifleman]

The only folks that would gain an advantage with 5-round magazines, in my opinion, are mid-level shooters competing against mere "human" hand loaders or mid-level folks that can't reliably hit zip tubes. And even then, every 9-round speed shoot would leave you and your six-round gun in the dust.

I'm thinking about using it at Ironman this June...every stage has 30-50 rounds of shotgun (on top of everything else), it could be an advantage once fatigue takes over and slows other people down.

Another time I would have liked to have used one was at SMM3G this year with the 30 degree temperatures...I can load mags a lot easier with my hands freezing off, then individual shells.

Edited April 6, 2006 by SinistralRifleman

[D.Hayden]

How do these really run?

At the 3 Gun nats, there were only 3 or 4 of them, but I didn't see one that ran 100% - the desert dust seemed to give them fits.

[jc_conn]

The only folks that would gain an advantage with 5-round magazines, in my opinion, are mid-level shooters competing against mere "human" hand loaders or mid-level folks that can't reliably hit zip tubes. And even then, every 9-round speed shoot would leave you and your six-round gun in the dust.

I'm thinking about using it at Ironman this June...every stage has 30-50 rounds of shotgun (on top of everything else), it could be an advantage once fatigue takes over and slows other people down.

Another time I would have liked to have used one was at SMM3G this year with the 30 degree temperatures...I can load mags a lot easier with my hands freezing off, then individual shells.

Russell:

The only disadvantage I can see to using the Saiga is related more to gear than the rifle:

How are you planning on carrying the 6-10 5-round mags on your person? I know that you've been carrying shotgun shells across your chest and up and down your shoulders. I think it would be a bit of a logistical problem to add in 6-10 magazines on top of 6-10 AR15 magazines and 3-5 pistol magazines. Of course, if you're going to reconfigure between stages, then it shouldn't be a problem.

Re-reading Wakal's post... what's the load/make ready routine for a Saiga? Lock up a magazine, charge the weapon, then exchange for a full mag, leaving 6 rounds in the gun? How hard is it to seat a full 5-round magazine on a closed bolt? I don't have any hands-on with the Saiga so I can't speak from experience; I'm just throwing stuff out.

Jeremy

Edited April 6, 2006 by jc_conn

[Liota]

Or, you guys could send the magazines to that guy in San Angelo who makes a ten-rounder out of two five-rounders.

Liota

[SinistralRifleman]

Russell:

The only disadvantage I can see to using the Saiga is related more to gear than the rifle:

How are you planning on carrying the 6-10 5-round mags on your person? I know that you've been carrying shotgun shells across your chest and up and down your shoulders. I think it would be a bit of a logistical problem to add in 6-10 magazines on top of 6-10 AR15 magazines and 3-5 pistol magazines. Of course, if you're going to reconfigure between stages, then it shouldn't be a problem.

Well I've already figured out to to carry 6-8 without too much trouble. The 5 rounders will fit in a .308 pouch. I have a SOB battle rig that has more real estate on it than the Super MOUTs I use with the shells across the front. I think I can figure something out. Along these lines, I'd rather have 8 rounders than 10s because it will be easier to find/make a way of carrying them.

Re-reading Wakal's post... what's the load/make ready routine for a Saiga? Lock up a magazine, charge the weapon, then exchange for a full mag, leaving 6 rounds in the gun? How hard is it to seat a full 5-round magazine on a closed bolt? I don't have any hands-on with the Saiga so I can't speak from experience; I'm just throwing stuff out.

Jeremy

With 2-3/4" shells with my Saiga anyway, it isn't hard at all to load a 5 rounder with a closed bolt...so you can start with 6 in the gun.

[jc_conn]

Russell:

The only disadvantage I can see to using the Saiga is related more to gear than the rifle:

How are you planning on carrying the 6-10 5-round mags on your person? I know that you've been carrying shotgun shells across your chest and up and down your shoulders. I think it would be a bit of a logistical problem to add in 6-10 magazines on top of 6-10 AR15 magazines and 3-5 pistol magazines. Of course, if you're going to reconfigure between stages, then it shouldn't be a problem.

Well I've already figured out to to carry 6-8 without too much trouble. The 5 rounders will fit in a .308 pouch. I have a SOB battle rig that has more real estate on it than the Super MOUTs I use with the shells across the front. I think I can figure something out. Along these lines, I'd rather have 8 rounders than 10s because it will be easier to find/make a way of carrying them.

Re-reading Wakal's post... what's the load/make ready routine for a Saiga? Lock up a magazine, charge the weapon, then exchange for a full mag, leaving 6 rounds in the gun? How hard is it to seat a full 5-round magazine on a closed bolt? I don't have any hands-on with the Saiga so I can't speak from experience; I'm just throwing stuff out.

Jeremy

With 2-3/4" shells with my Saiga anyway, it isn't hard at all to load a 5 rounder with a closed bolt...so you can start with 6 in the gun.

Russell:

To address your original question.... I don't think you'll be at a DISADVANTAGE using a Saiga. I think the crux of the situation will be more a matter of practice, training, and technique rather than the inherent qualities of the weapon.

When you do run your Saiga, be sure to get some good video. I'd be interested in seeing that.

Jeremy

[benny hill]

7-8 rds at a port, while you are doing a flat footed reload for more ammo, I'm fireing 8 & then reloading on the move. Big disadvantage.

[SinistralRifleman]

7-8 rds at a port, while you are doing a flat footed reload for more ammo, I'm fireing 8 & then reloading on the move. Big disadvantage.

I think your Jedi like shooting powers are more of an advantage than capacity...You came within 13 seconds of Alex Wakal's time on the long shotgun stage at our match last year loading by hand, and he used a 20 round drum and two 10 round sticks.

[George]

Depends on who you are trying to beat. Someone who can cram 4 at a time in 2.5 seconds shot to shot has even ten round magfeeders workin' hard to keep up. Ya gotta' figure 3.5-4 seconds is a reload time you can count on with the Saiga after some practice. At under a second a round, you are very competitive with most tube handlers. But then again, there are some folks that are just plain loading machines and they ought to be classified as loading devices ;-)

[Religious Shooter]

The advantage (in USPSA) is the ability to run a flat-footed single-action load of 10 rounds, vice two speed and a half zip tubes (or one custom zip tube and one normal, or two tubes and two loose rounds).

Against a open tube gunner (10 rounds) with speed loaders I would say the Saiga with 5 rounders would be slower.

But I think Sinistral's question was... "against tube fed shooters ([with] no speed-loaders)".

I'd say it's a wash against a good hand loader. With a slower reloader I'd say the 5-round Saiga shooter would win.

Let's take a typical stage of 24 rounds.

With a tube gun 24 -9 = 15 rounds need to be reloaded.

"Good" Reloader needs... 15 x (.75-1 secs per shell) = 14.25-15 seconds

"Average" Reloader needs... 15 x (1-1.5 SPS) = 15-22.5 seconds

Needs Practice... 15 x (1.5+ SPS) = 22.5+ seconds

The Saiga would need to reload 24 - (5+1) = 18 rounds. So the 5 round Saiga shooter would need 4 additional mags.

Say a 3-4 second reload with the Saiga:

4 x (3-4) = 12-16 seconds needed for reloading.

Yes you can move while reloading. But no matter what, the physical act of reloading takes the above estimated amount of time.

If it's a 9 round stage... of course the tuber would win. But how many of those do you see?

[kurtm]

Good post R.S. but I think you need to factor in the positions in this 24 round field course, where it would requier more than 5 -6 rounds to shoot. The flat footed reloads would kill you. And since the Saiga doesn't do the babby bird ( lock back after the last round and says feed me). I bet some time would be lost in clicking and racking. I think the fatique factor of a 50 round course would push the Saiga into the lead but for a mear 24-30 I think not. I'm willing to take take the Pepsi challenge.

[SinistralRifleman]

If I do end up taking the Saiga for Ironman this year, I will likely carry my M3 or an 870 SBS for back up....I probably won't have a chance to run the thousand rounds through it that I'd like to before the match.

[benny hill]

Com'on kurt, that would be takeing candy from a baby. No way the saiga can compete.

[SinistralRifleman]

The only people I'm shooting against are all the other psychos crazy enough to shoot trooper class at the most grueling match with highest round count in the country. If the round count wasn't so high, I really wouldn't be considering using it with only 5 round mags available.

I guess what I'm going to have to do is simply determine if I shoot faster using the saiga on a long course than loading tube fed guns. There is a lot of stationary, standing in one place shooting a couple dozen targets kind of stuff at Ironman. I should set up a couple plates racks with people on the ropes to reset them, and do a couple runs through to 40 or 50 rounds with the saiga, and then 40 or 50 rounds through with my M3. Once I obtain enough magazines, the testing will commence...

Edited April 9, 2006 by SinistralRifleman

[diehli]

I guess what I'm going to have to do is simply determine if I shoot faster using the saiga on a long course than loading tube fed guns.

DING DING DING DING DIIINNNGGG!!!!! We have a winner!!!

[benny hill]

Give that man a cigar.

[SinistralRifleman]

So I tracked down a source for 5 round Saiga mags...I have 15 on the way. FBMG in Utah has a few dozen more if anyone happens to be looking for them

I also have open topped .308 Tac Tailor mag pouches on the way, so I will be able to have at least 6 ready for fast access on my vest.

My Saiga should be back from Tromix in 2-3 weeks.

[smokshwn]

As a sidenote the guys are FBMG are good peeps. As a matter of fact Larry is one of the most knowledgeable guys about the east bloc guns that I have met.

[jhgtyre]

Who is FBMG? Do they have a website?

Thanks,

-Larry

[smokshwn]

Here ya go

FBMG

[jhgtyre]

Very cool.

Thanks.

-ld

[Bronco]

A couple of us shot an 11 rnd. cof with our tube SG and then with the Saiga mag fed. Tube SG 13 sec. Saiga 17 sec. Granted we practice with the tube fed SG and my reload with the Saiga was poor to say the least. One nice thing about the Saiga is the lite recoil, stays flat even with slugs.