How About Classifying On The Curve, Especially At

[COF]

What we are finding is that those shooters that are multi-gun classified ONLY shoot a classifier in the one/ones that they are going to shoot major matches in.

I'm guilty of this myself. I'm classified in all five divisions, but I'm current only in ESR, and soon in SSR since our monthly match is going to be the classifier this month. The bottomfeeders will be gathering dust for the most part this year. FWIW, the USPSA club I belong to is shooting a four classifer match next month, and I'm shooting a round gun for that as well.

A problem many of us have is that we like guns, and like to shoot them, and unless we're a win-or-die competitor, we spread ourselves too thin having fun.

After the new rules came out last year I was asked about the reclassification rule by just about every shooter at our club. I figured as the MD, and as an SOI, I should have the answer to the question so I called HQ. The response I got was the annual reclassification was geared more towards sanctioned matches. They realize that it creates an extreme burden on the clubs to try to classify every shooter in every division - you'd almost have to offer the classifier every month.

The way I approach it is - if you are shooting in a division or you want to shoot a sanctioned match, you need to reclassify every year. If not, don't worry about it. This seems to be working for our local crowd. I'm classified in all five divisions but haven't shot SSP or SSR in over a year so I'm not concerned about reclassifying in them. If I decide to start shooting them again, then I'll reclassify.

[postal]

that's funny stuff chills, because i was the only one at the last classifier with a calculator, and just happened to be i was trying to figure out how much time i had left to make ssp master, which would be far from sandbagging

i know i had the only calculator, because people who where done where sent to me to add up their scores

[Chills1994]

Hey Mr. Postal,

No you were not the only with a calculator at that classifier. And I am not saying that anyone with a calculator and enough down time between stages is a sandbagger.

Trust me, I was there a lot longer than you and I saw a few other folks with calculators. Not that they are necessarily sandbaggers either. Starting a classifier with one gun at maybe 9am and finally shooting stage 3 around 2:30 PM gave me plenty of time to take things in.

Actually, having a calculator in your range bag, especially for classifiers, and regular matches is a good idea. A good enough idea that I'm stealing it from you/stole it from you as you might have noticed at that major match.

I've made my concerns about how that classifier was run to just about everyone who shoots, especially IDPA.

My main reason for doing so was not to complain or to whine about it, but to solicit feedback from other shooters on how to make it better.

I have been in the process for a few months now of bringing back IPSC and IDPA and possibly steel to this side of the river, especially since Caseyville's eminent domain issues has their new range in limbo. I am a paid Life member of Caseyville.

Consequently, I have a vested interest in making matches, especially classifiers run smoother. All in an effort to make you and others, the end users or customers happy enough to return to shoot other matches.

BTW, I have forwarded my comments and other comments I got from fellow shooters to the people who ran that classifier.

Also, anybody that knows you, Mr. Postal, and the way you shoot would never call you a sandbagger anyway. Including me.

I still like the idea of running all three stages of the classifier straight through for these reasons:

1. You get warmed up on stage 1 and that helps carry you through on 2 and 3.

2. Shooting stage 1 first can be a good confidence booster and a way to get rid of the jitters.

3. It eliminates downtime for the sandbaggers to whip out their calculators and estimate how slowly and/or how poorly they need to shoot the subsequent stages.

Yeah, I know the rule book says you can take all day to shoot the classifier, and break it up any way you want to.

See ya Tuesday

Edited April 10, 2006 by Chills1994

[COF]

"Also, anybody that knows you, Mr. Postal, and the way you shoot would never call you a sandbagger anyway. Including me. "

Man, it's getting deep around here!!

[Mayonaise]

I have a calculator in my bag. I only use it after a sanctioned match or after a classifier. I like to make sure the score jibes with the score keeper's.

[Chills1994]

Roger that Mayonaise!

+1

And to everyone else who has suggested that I am whining about losing:

YOU ALL ARE DEAD WRONG!!

If anything, I am complaining about cheating in this sport. You all need to go back and reread my initial post that kicked this whole thread off.

Like I said in my first post, I was just happy not to be last in my class and division. I went to this major match realistically with the expectation that I would NOT be walking away with a trophy.

I am posting here, in this subforum, to kick around some ideas I have about making things fairer for everyone. Consequently, your opinions, and that's just what they are, like mine are appropriately acknowledged and taken into account.

Granted I am new to this sport and going to major matches, I can appreciate some of you all's knocks against my lack of expertise. But I tell you what....That kind of attitude is not going to lure new inexperienced shooters to this sport.

Additionally, viewing this sport with a fresh set of eyes could be beneficial. Oh, about 10 to 15 years ago, the business world called coming up with new ways of doing things "paradigm shifting." The new buzz phrase is called "thinking outside of the box."

Furthermore, some of you may not like my ideas. That's okay. It is human nature to not want to embrace any sort of change, especially in organizations. Just think about it! When was the last time you encountered change? Did you like it? Or did you want things to stay the way they have always been?

For those who think that basing classification on the mean at a major match is too much of hassle or too scientific to "fly in the real world", our great national pastime of Major League Baseball has started another season. That whole sport is about statistics. Heck, millions and millions of dollars can hang in the balance based upon an individual players, ERA, RBI's, AB's, SO's, stolen bases, batting averages, etc, etc.

Since it alreadly looked like the volunteer scorekeepers were generating an Excel spreadsheet to printout scores, IMO it shouldn't be too much of a hassle to have the ol' 'puter spit out a mean and a standard deviation for each division.

And let's not forget that these are just my ideas. No one said that IDPA HQ was going to adopt these measures anytime soon, if at all.

Chills

Edited April 11, 2006 by Chills1994

[postal]

chills, chill for a second{lol}

i have given this thread some thought, and you do have a point about sandbaggers, and let me be the only one ever to admit to sandbagging {will explain}, i have discover that there are three types of shooters in this sport

1. honest shooter, he is typically in master class or in the bottom of his classification

2. the sandbagger, goes up in one class, then shoots a major match in a much lower class than his abilities

3. the non-sanbagger, not good enough in any class to even sandbag, and typically hates better shooters in general

now if anyone thinks for a second that making a stage part of your clasificacion will detour sandbaggers, your kidding yourself, a good sandbagger will just sandbag on the stage, and even if it where to be kept secret, it may or may not show shooting abilities, everyone has good days, everyone has bad days

now for My explanation

i am classified the same in four guns, this shows allot of a consistently, i shot 4 major matches last year, even though i won 1 division,1 1st place {then 2nd,3rd}, i still did not move up,{not my fault, i did try} and at the time i did have the abilities to shoot in the upper class, i did not do it consistently enough to be competitive, and now in the last 7 months i have came a long way, and very well could be competitive in the upper classes, but can i just move myself up because i know i am shooting better?

no

do i go out of my way to shoot a classifier because i am shooting better when my classification is not expired?

no

so anyone working hard at becoming a better shooter is more often than not called a sandbagger, while at one match i may have won first place by a wide margin, then the next match not as well while shooting in the same class and same division, it ether means i am in the class i should be in, or at the second match i just got out sandbagged, you make the call

and as far as trophy hounds go here is my take{since i have been referred to outside this board as a trophy hound, which is stupid, just because i occasionally win them}

myself as well as many other spend allot of cash on this sport, from multiple guns, to ammo, and the time and money spent on matches, for me i am married with children, this can get in the way of allot of things, bringing home a earned trophy is in a way a justification for some money and time spent, not to mention the nights before a big match spent neglecting the wife and kids so i can get to bed early to make in to the match in time the next day

Edited April 11, 2006 by postal

[Chills1994]

Hey Mr. Postal, et al,

I didn't say that being a trophy hound was a bad thing. Sandbagging to get said trophy IS.

It is quite understable to want a trophy and or expect a trophy after sinking/sacrificing so much time and money into this sport to reach a certain level of mastery/proficiency. And helping others along the way, I might add.

Hence, sandbagging hurts us all.

I will run some final major match scores through a statistics program called SPSS. When that's done, I will post the means, medians and SD's here, just to wrap up this thread (or I will post them in another thread called: Reclassifying on the Curve: Part Deux).

And before I go this time, let me clear one more thing up. Yes I did shoot a classifier recently and yes I did shoot a major match recently.

Do I have the experience in this competition/sport to pick out the sandbaggers?

No probably not, so let me state for the record that I did not witness any sandbagging going on at either event. I am not calling any one person a sandbagger.

Like I mentioned previously, this fourm and its posters are not necessarily a representative sample of competitivie shooting as a whole. So my guess is that this site is more likely to draw the true honest competitors who want to better their shooting abilities and the sport itself.

Anyhoo....just to give everyone a head's up, I will be leaving any and all internet forums after I start one maybe 2 more threads here at BE. I have a whole host of reasons, notwithstanding one poster's eloquent reply along the lines of "My match scores tend to improve when I type less and shoot more."

I will be taking such advice to heart. I foresee lots more range, airsoft, and dry firing time in my future.

Chills

[Crusher]

I foresee lots more range, airsoft, and dry firing time in my future.

That's the ticket

[revchuck]

(Must remember to type less.....shoot more.....resist the urge to surf.....)

+1!!!

[marinegrunt]

Postal congratulations on SSP Master, you did it in 97.99 pretty good you did it in a classifier. attaboy and two thumbs up.

[postal]

thanks allot, i do think i screwed up a bit, it should have been around 90-92 at this stage of my shooting, but i will take it even if it is really on the low end of master class, i don't feel bad at all doing it in less than 18 months from the first time i drew from a holster

[Chills1994]

Congrat's on making Master, Postal!

A little birdey already told me you did.

[John K]

What irks me is that a guy trains all year for the state match, and then some A class IPSC shooters manages to get classified as a MM and wins the MM division with scores that would have won the SS and placed 3rd in the Expert.

I doubt that an A class IPSC shooter would ever shoot his best, trying for both acuracy and speed, and shoot in the MM or SS class.

Those who would do sucha thing are cheaters.

it seems that there is no way for a bonafided SS or MM to win the class because sandbaggers will always do what it takes to "win"

[RickB]

If you shoot well-attended sanctioned matches, you won't be able to "hide" in a lower class, as your match performance will bump you up. With the new classification database - which can be updated by club officials - any shooter who should be bumped will no longer be able to "forget" his classification; anyone can go to the website and check it.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Cry a river and drown the sport.

Look at it from some peoples point of view. finding a classifier to shoot before the major match is a real pain in the ass... not to mention that anxiety can get the same things going on as it does in USPSA with people tanking it because they want to be that next level soooo bad!

I don't think there is a problem worth addressing, or adding work to other people and things. Some masters in one division will just sign up as a master in whatever they shoot ( I do anyway), other people just want a trophy which is pretty lame but the world is not a fair place.

[Jim Watson]

There was a CAS club that always announced at the start of a match:

"Anybody who is willing to do something unsafe or dishonest to get a trophy, please stand up. We will give you a trophy and you won't even have to shoot."

Sandbagging in a trophy-only event like IDPA is petty and cheap. I can understand sandbagging and other forms of cheating in IPSC where a fat prize table meets the rule "Anything worth winning is worth cheating for." Not my philosophy but I have seen too many people who do go by it.

[et45]

I love the look on known sandbagger's faces when told they are bumped up to the next class.