Gaming Cm 99-58

[omnia1911]

I think it was rather clever of Bob to make this classifier comstock scoring. Anyone who thinks he can do well on this classifier by firing more than 12 rounds with 12 good hits will have been rope-a-doped with the "stacking" idea. Each target must be engaged before and after the reload. Fire as many rounds as you want. Only the best 2 hits per target will score. Those quickly firing just 12 rounds with good hits will eat the rest of the pack alive on this small stage.

CM 99-58 talk:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3602

Edited March 19, 2006 by omnia1911

[Nik Habicht]

I don't see a probem with doubling each target before the reload, but you'd still need to "engage" all 6 targets after the reload. (burning 6 into the berm really isnn't "engaging" the targets)

I am with Flex all the way. If I were the RO, I'd let you stack the shots all you want whenever you want. But I would assign the appropriate penalties for not engaging each target after the reload, then let you appeal to anyone that would listen.

Me three! But it might not be the smartest way to shoot the stage....

I don't see a probem with doubling each target before the reload, but you'd still need to "engage" all 6 targets after the reload. (burning 6 into the berm really isnn't "engaging" the targets)

I am with Flex all the way. If I were the RO, I'd let you stack the shots all you want whenever you want. But I would assign the appropriate penalties for not engaging each target after the reload, then let you appeal to anyone that would listen.

Therein lies the rub . . . determining if targets were engaged or if shots were just dumped into the berm . . .

An experienced RO will have no trouble making that call.....

I don't see a probem with doubling each target before the reload, but you'd still need to "engage" all 6 targets after the reload. (burning 6 into the berm really isnn't "engaging" the targets)

I am with Flex all the way. If I were the RO, I'd let you stack the shots all you want whenever you want. But I would assign the appropriate penalties for not engaging each target after the reload, then let you appeal to anyone that would listen.

But Again, how do you you determine "engaging" and who do you appeal to?

It should have been Virginia!

No --- Comstock's good! It gets people mindfracking themselves, by finding a "better" way. It allows those who call a miss, to instantly make one up. As to the determination of engaging: You know what the shooter's gun movement looks like if he's shooting a stage of this type Virginia Count, so, just look for the transitions. You'll be able to tell if the gun's just pointed at one spot on the berm......

[Flexmoney]

I think the original question was asking about "stacking".

In comstock, you can stack until the cows come home.

The rub here is that yuo still need to follow the stage procedure...which requires engaging each target (before and after the reload).

[Singlestack]

If I'm not mistaken, stacking is not allowed unless specifically mentioned. In other words, you can not stack unless the course description says you can. I don't have my rule book in front of me but I will go look it up.

[omnia1911]

If I'm not mistaken, stacking is not allowed unless specifically mentioned. In other words, you can not stack unless the course description says you can. I don't have my rule book in front of me but I will go look it up.

Technically, stacking occurs in virginia count and fixed time scoring, not comstock.

9.4.5 In a Virginia Count or Fixed Time Course of Fire:

US9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. shooting more than the required rounds

on a target, but shooting at fewer targets than specified in

any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target not

engaged in any string. This penalty will not be applied if the

written stage briefing specifically authorizes stacked shots.

Edited March 19, 2006 by omnia1911

[Shooter Grrl]

Okay people, here's the deal - in a COMSTOCK stage in order to satisfy the course description as written, you need to FIRE a minimum of six rounds RELOAD and fire six more. Period, end 'o discussion.

Nowhere in my RO training has it ever been my job to do anything other than to watch the gun and ensure the safety of the shooter and my spectators. Once that's done, then I go score the hits on the targets.

If i'm ARO, I watch for foot faults and count shots in a virginia count stage in addition to ensuring the safety of the shooter and my spectators.

[Ron Ankeny]

Kathy:

I hear you loud and clear, and I agree on the surface. But, if I am an RO and the stage description requires an action of the competitor, and I clearly see the competitor fail to comply with the course requirements, am I not obligated to take action?

So here's the kicker. If I clearly see the shooter did not engage each target, do I just ignore the fact? If so, how could we ever give a FTE to anyone that shot the minimum number of shots required to complete a course of fire?

[Shooter Grrl]

If so, how could we ever give a FTE to anyone that shot the minimum number of shots required to complete a course of fire?

Uh... I usually don't assess FTE penalties if the required number of rounds have been shot in a comstock stage unless it's a moving/non-disappearing target.

[davidball]

Okay people, here's the deal - in a COMSTOCK stage in order to satisfy the course description as written, you need to FIRE a minimum of six rounds RELOAD and fire six more. Period, end 'o discussion.

The course description says to "engage" targets. Does firing rounds = engaging targets?

[Bigbadaboom]

I say go ahead and stack away. I know this Classifier and I've tried it every way you can think of trying to game it. I even set it up at my practice range with the intent of setting it up at a local match so I could game it. My conclusion after running it about 20 times in every way I could think of was that shooting ea. target with 1 round, performing a mandatory reload, and then shooting ea. target with one round was the fastest I could perform it.

You can learn from my waste of time or you can tank it on your own.

[Shooter Grrl]

The course description says to "engage" targets. Does firing rounds = engaging targets?

Um, well, yup! That's exactly what it means!

[ima45dv8]

I don't think the simple act of firing rounds necessarily = engaging targets. As an extreme example, if I saw a shooter aim 10 feet to the side of a target and dump 6 rounds into the berm, I wouldn't call that engaging targets.

God granted us with peripheral vision, and sometimes I've had it tell me that a shooter was faulting a line, even while I was watching the gun as we were taught. When that happens I can't just ignore it. It can also tell us if someone aims well to the side of a bank of targets and blows multiple clumps of dirt out of the backstop.

As with any other penalty, I would have to be 100% certain of the fact, or I would do nothing.

[Nik Habicht]

If so, how could we ever give a FTE to anyone that shot the minimum number of shots required to complete a course of fire?

Uh... I usually don't assess FTE penalties if the required number of rounds have been shot in a comstock stage unless it's a moving/non-disappearing target.

Ummmm, so if you see me blow right by a target without engaging it, you won't give me a penalty, as long as I make up two misses somewhere else on the stage? Or will you make an exception just for me?

[Calamity Jane]

[ Jane has to decide whether to bow to peer pressure and do "the right thing" or to stick to her guns and execute her formerly Brilliant plan.

I shot the stage as the stage designer intended and placed second on the stage in Limited division.

This classifier has cost me a heated debate with my husband, a sleepless night struggling with "doing the right thing", and a headache related to performing complex mathmatical calculations in my head. Maybe what makes this stage so great is the temptation to stack.

Edited March 20, 2006 by Calamity Jane

[Ray_Z]

I guess I'm going to be the radical again. Comstock or not the COF says 1 round at each target/reload/1 round at each target. Eather you're going to follow the COF or you're not. The way I look at it, once you've satisfied the COF you can shoot 'till you run out of ammo.

Edited March 20, 2006 by Ray_Z

[mactiger]

Intent is a sort of scary proposition. In this classifier, the stage description is a bit vague, but it's clear enough. To paraphrase: "you must engage (shoot at) each target (in the first string) with (at least) one round, then make a mandatory reload and engage (shoot at) each target with (at least) one round.

Just shooting rounds downrange is not engaging or shooting at, targets. Just because you've fired the required number of rounds doesn't mean that you've actually engaged (shot at) all the targets. The RO with the timer is charged with watching the gun, but you must also see what needs to be seen. Just watching the slide cycle is kinda boring; you must also see where the muzzle is pointing and learn to watch what targets the competitor is shooting at. Failure to engage penalties are either very easy to call or very difficult--you must be sure of the call. There is an arbitration exercise in the Level II course that deals with just this sort of thing--failure to engage despite having fired "extra" rounds. The CRO was watching where the muzzle was pointed and could definitely say that the competitor did not fire at a particular target.

Well, enough straying off topic. In this classifier, you must shoot a minimum of one round at each target in the first string, reload, and do that again. Since it's Comstock, the competitor may fire as many as he wants at each target in each string, but still must satisfy the course requirements for each string. There is no such thing as stacking in a Comstock course of fire, and in general firing extra shots to try and "stack" doesn't help in this classifier. Of course, picking up misses does.

Troy

[driver8M3]

it wouldnt be too hard to disguise your round-dumping by moving the gun a little (watch that no-shoot!). but, it just doesnt seem like firing 18 rounds instead of 12 can be the faster/better way to run it (especially in production, L10, rev, SS).

[Loves2Shoot]

it just doesnt seem like firing 18 rounds instead of 12 can be the faster/better way to run it (especially in production, L10, rev, SS).

It isn't, in any division.

[moverfive]

But Again, how do you you determine "engaging" and who do you appeal to?

It should have been Virginia!

You would have to watch the shooter to determine if they actually engaged - which simply means making a legitimate attempt to put one round on each target.

Comstock/Virginia or Stacking or not stacking - it doesn't matter. The people that are going to get the highest hit factor on this stage (excluding that miracle run) will shoot this straight-forward. Because you have to make a legitimate attempt to shoot each target, it is a waste of time to double up on one of the passes.

For classifiers, you can game, strategize, and whatever else you want - you will get the best hit factor on 99.9% of the classifiers by just shooting them straight. If you have shooters that want to get crazy, let them. They won't change the overall results or their classification.

[Flexmoney]

Sometimes an RO might have to make a judgement call. We are there to assist the shooter and score the stage (fairly for everybody). With that, there are times when the RO has to make the call. "Engaging" targets can be one of those times. (It probably isn't that hard to tell.)

[mactiger]

Sometimes an RO might have to make a judgement call. We are there to assist the shooter and score the stage (fairly for everybody). With that, there are times when the RO has to make the call. "Engaging" targets can be one of those times. (It probably isn't that hard to tell.)

Most times it isn't--sometimes it's very difficult. If you aren't sure, you can't call it, but most of the time there isn't a question.

Troy

[schoonie]

A smart shooter who is prepared to game a stage will or should take measures to protect him or her self from the possible penalties.

I know, as a RO, it can be very hard to make the FTE call for an individual target that is a part of a mutiple target array.

If I was to cap off six rounds as fast as possible it sure makes sense to aim at the targets, heck you might get lucky and get an A!

[SmittyFL]

What's the big deal? Let 'em do it, I imagine that is why the course was left comstock. If it was virginia count we would have saved all this good bandwidth. There is no need to look for further ways to penalize a competitor that likes to penalize themselves.

We have local shooter who I guarantee would stack this course. He still communicates with pigeons so I know he won't see this. The rub is he's a pretty good shooter but he spends more time trying to game stages and ends up shooting it the slowest way possible.

We even have a name for when someone shoots a stupid plan on a stage......"Why did you go and Andy it?"