Windmills & Stars & Bubble Yum

[Carmoney]

I also hate Texas Stars, but not for the same reasons that Ron does I just suck at shooting them.

I'm not so sure Ron doesn't hate them for the exact same reason.....

[chuckbradley]

Mr. Bradley,

As a short time IDPA/USPSA shooter with no sense of the history involved in the two shooting sports I found your post very interesting, thank you for the insight. It would explain much that until this point I just had to guess at.

By your quote below are you saying the Mr. Wilson used a non-Wilson polymer gun in competition or that Wilson Combat (or what ever Wilson Combat might have been called at the time) produced a polymer frame gun?

Of course after an attempt to compete with a high cap polymer frame himslef.---Chuck Bradley

Respectfully,

jkelly

Not sure if he ever competed shooting a polymer high cap. I think he quit shooting competitively before they came out. I was referring to the time he tried to market a high cap polymer frame which i believe was a bul 5 frame from Israel. They just didnt gain the acceptance of the shooters and STI still dominated. So when I said compete I meant in business.

I also hate Texas Stars, but not for the same reasons that Ron does I just suck at shooting them.

I'm not so sure Ron doesn't hate them for the exact same reason.....

I hate them also. The biggest reason is that they dont provide each shooter with the same problem. I have seen them get an edge shot and leave the plate hanging on one pin. Is that a hit or miss. Rules say a plate must fall when hit so its really a range malfunction. I have seen(and this was on some cheap homemade copies) the plates come off and jam up the wheel. I saw one guy keep shooting one and it just kept getting wedged tighter althought he plate was still standing facing the shooter. The ro should have stopped him but didnt. There should be a ton of reshoots with these. Its just not a good target. It may be fun at a local match but has no place in a major much less a nationals. Same goes for the spinners. We are supposed to be testing skill not luck.

[Jake Di Vita]

I totally agree with Chuck's assertation of Stars and Windmills.

When a C class shooter can beat 3/4 of the top GM's in the world on a stage....chances are there's something wrong with the stage.

[Bigbadaboom]

Come on guys! I'm tellin ya, if they get rid of the T-Stars and windmills and your ever attacked by a bunch of cart-wheeling, summer-saulting Ninjas you'll be sorry.

I happen to like the T-Star. It's probably my favorite IPSC prop-target. The Windmill absolutely sucks though. Just my opinion.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Come on guys! I'm tellin ya, if they get rid of the T-Stars and windmills and your ever attacked by a bunch of cart-wheeling, summer-saulting Ninjas you'll be sorry.

I happen to like the T-Star. It's probably my favorite IPSC prop-target. The Windmill absolutely sucks though. Just my opinion.

I shot the windmill at last years nationals, I'll take a windmill over a star ANY day.

[Carmoney]

When a C class shooter can beat 3/4 of the top GM's in the world on a stage....chances are there's something wrong with the stage.

Or, that particular C shooter may have certain very specific shooting skills that most of the GMs have never developed. Shooters with extensive experience in handling reactive targets (bowling pins, falling steel, etc.), and with experience in leading moving targets (skeet, Bianchi, pheasant hunting) may actually be consistently better at something like the T-star, for example, than many GMs whose entire base of shooting experience begins and ends with IPSC.

[Carmoney]

Same goes for the spinners. We are supposed to be testing skill not luck.

Again, there are very specific skills/timing/lead/coordination involved in successfully shooting a spinning target like we saw on Stage 18 (I think it was 18) at the '05 Nationals. People are making a big mistake if they assume those who can clean the spinners are just lucky. I know certain shooters who are very good at stars and spinners, but who are definitely not at the GM level overall.

I certainly see nothing wrong with a stage that happens to test those particular skills, even if it's not "GM-friendly"!

I also see nothing wrong with 50-yard standards and memory stages, as they too test different, yet potentially valuable, sets of skills.

Gotta wonder if terms like "Bubblegum stage" sometimes really means "type of stage I'm just not real good at shooting"......

[Cameron]

I think some of these "bubblegum" stages are a result of local matches that do not have the space to have several good quality field stages. They are a good way to "improvise" when ideas wear thin.

I too do not have much history with IDPA and IPSC, but Chuck's point about Wilson leading the show with gun modifications, and then turn around and reject a "equipment race" is a bit suspicious.

Mr. Avery's article started out as being "tongue and cheek", and ended up bashing. If he does not like to sport anymore, then maybe he should find another nitch. I personally enjoyed the spaceguns and occasional carnival stage.

[chuckbradley]

Same goes for the spinners. We are supposed to be testing skill not luck.

Again, there are very specific skills/timing/lead/coordination involved in successfully shooting a spinning target like we saw on Stage 18 (I think it was 18) at the '05 Nationals. People are making a big mistake if they assume those who can clean the spinners are just lucky. I know certain shooters who are very good at stars and spinners, but who are definitely not at the GM level overall.

I certainly see nothing wrong with a stage that happens to test those particular skills, even if it's not "GM-friendly"!

I also see nothing wrong with 50-yard standards and memory stages, as they too test different, yet potentially valuable, sets of skills.

Gotta wonder if terms like "Bubblegum stage" sometimes really means "type of stage I'm just not real good at shooting"......

I never said I couldnt shoot them. I dont like them as a target because they dont present each shooter with the same problem and they give so many problems that are not being officiated properly. So many times you see an edge hit knock one where its hanging by one pin and the shooter shoots it again. As soon as that plate was hit and it didnt fall, by the rules it is a range malfunction and a reshoot is required. For local matches its fun to shoot and make fun of each other when we screw it up.

Maybe a moderator needs to break this off to a new thread since it isnt really relevant to the original post.

[blackdragon]

I Hate Texas Stars, Since they made them so all the plates wouldn't fall off when you hit it in the center!!!

Ivan

[Loves2Shoot]

The biggest reason I don't like them is that they aren't that hard at all IF you have one to practice with. That just isn't fair. I do have access to them, just in case you think I am whining. I'm talking about the average Joe who doesn't, and they are re-shoots waiting to happen. You can clean them with four shots because the falling plates can hit the plates left (I have it on tape and I threw an extra round downrange even thought the plate was falling just so I would have a better chance of no reshoot.)

[AlamoShooter]

As soon as that plate was hit and it didnt fall, by the rules it is a range malfunction and a reshoot is required. For local matches its fun to shoot and make fun of each other when we screw it up. ( as posted by Chuck Bradley)

One thing I see as a defining line on a stage or target is ' When most' of the shooters watching the target set shot are watching for the "Screw Ups" Do they watch to see if the stare spins and hangs a target? or are they watching to see how fast somtnig can be shot?

The Average Bubble Yum stage = everyone is watching for ( Unlucky) "Screw Ups"

(side note)

A Texas Star can be mastered = shot with perfect timeing and Skill. I saw it shot by Shred/Roy a year back... he shot from under a table so that just the bottom of the targets could be engaged.

Get him to post the video as I rember watching it the first taged hit the gound as the last target was hit ... I remember five ,or at least four targets in the air!

Edited March 2, 2006 by AlamoShooter

[XRe]

I saw it shot by Shred/Roy a year back... he shot from under a table so that just the bottom of the targets could be engaged.

Get him to post the video as I rember watching it the first taged hit the gound as the last target was hit ... I remember five ,or at least four targets in the air!

Here's the thread he posted: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...topic=19199&hl= - a studly run at the star, to be sure, but not quite as studly as you describe (I don't think physics would allow for that, given that you only had plates at the bottom??? )

[AlamoShooter]

I saw it shot by Shred/Roy a year back... he shot from under a table so that just the bottom of the targets could be engaged.

Get him to post the video as I rember watching it the first taged hit the gound as the last target was hit ... I remember five ,or at least four targets in the air!

Here's the thread he posted: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...topic=19199&hl= - a studly run at the star, to be sure, but not quite as studly as you describe (I don't think physics would allow for that, given that you only had plates at the bottom??? )

Ok Ok but I am taller than the camera man so my view was better than the camera ?

[Flexmoney]

I went to the Mo Fall Classic a few years ago. I had just made Master. I was shooting with Master from TN, MS, AZ, AR...etc.

There was a stage which featured two Texas Stars. Everybody on the squad burned it down. It just wasn't a problem at all.

They are a shooting test.

Range equipment failure is range equipment failure. Like anything else, learn to manage it and move on.

Same thing on the windmill. I've shot them at the past two Nationals. Both times, I have managed to have bullet holes touching each other on the target. They happened to be in the Delta, not the Alpha (boo me). I simply don't have them mastered (my lead is off?). But, clearly they are not pure luck.

I shouldn't even have to mention that real world practical targets are likely going to be moving.

Any target that we can get that we can figure out how to run it fairly...that allows movement...I think we ought to make the effort to include it.

Moving targets are "practical".

[Jim Norman]

Moving targets are "practical".

AMEN!

If we are to think "Practical" you would not have any stationary targets. Lets be honest here, as soon as the first round goes off, every target should be in motion! No one in their right mind is going to be standing still!

THis said, the T-Star is a fine target, it preesnts the exact same challenge to each shooter up until the first plate s shoot off. Think about a swinger or a drop-turner that is activated by a popper. If I am good and fast, I might get the swinger on the first swing, but a slower shooter is going to take maybe several swings, a really slow shooter might get to the swinger when it is nearly stopped.

We have one, we use it on both pistol and shotgun courses. Not too often, but usually a couple times a year.

Jim

[chuckbradley]

I love moving targets. My favorites are clam shells and drop turners but swingers and sliders are great. We had a local guy make a target that when activated swung and bobbed at the same time. That was a challenge. I just dont like the texas star. Too many problems. The hanging plate on one pin, the plate that falls and knocks the next one or two off the rack, the one plate that comes of and lodges itself against the frame. Like I said its good for fun at a local match but has no place in a Big Match.

As for presenting the same problem to each shooter. If you mark the plates and start with it in the same position everytime it would be better but it still doesnt fix the other problems I wrote about.

My favorite movers were at the Texas Limited match in Grham. I thinkit was 2 miner carts , one on each side, activated by 2 poppers. Opposite sides at that. They came at you but disappeared. Couldnt let them go becuase it was 40 points of the stage. That was a good match, all kinds of props. It was back in 98 or 99 I think. One stage was a swimmng pool and you were in a boat in the pool. Texas comes up with some cool stages.

[Ron Ankeny]

I'm not so sure Ron doesn't hate them for the exact same reason.....

For those who haven't been paying attention, I believe any prop that causes new shooters to zero a stage is bad for the sport. Any prop that is prone to range failure is a pain in the butt as far as match administration, and any prop that introduces an element of luck in place of skill has no business as a test of shooting ability. I know those concepts are really hard for some folks to grasp, and others just plain disagree, but that's my story and I am sticking with it.

[Crusher]

I believe any prop that causes new shooters to zero a stage is bad for the sport.

I don't belive there are any zeroed stages because of props. Normally stages are zeroed because of the shooter is reaching well beyond their ablities.

As for the rest: I concure

Any prop that is prone to range failure is a pain in the butt as far as match administration, and any prop that introduces an element of luck in place of skill has no business as a test of shooting ability.

[Loves2Shoot]

I don't belive there are any zeroed stages because of props. Normally stages are zeroed because of the shooter is reaching well beyond their ablities.

I agree, but who is making them reach beyond their ability?

It isn't circus props that kill stages, it's the stage designers (MD) who use them.

[Ron Ankeny]

I don't belive there are any zeroed stages because of props. Normally stages are zeroed because of the shooter is reaching well beyond their ablities.

Ever see a swinging magnetic plate rack that disappears behind hardcover, then reappears briefly, thereby making the multiple exposure requirements? Tell the junior shooter the five mikes and five FTEs had nothing to do with the prop. Of course the guys that shot the same prop in the afternoon breeze had it made because the rack swung forward and bound on the cables.

I have never encountered a target that went beyond my ability, including movers. Frankly, I wouldn't be bothered by full size poppers at 100 yards and plate racks at 50 yards, but that doesn't mean I should incorporate them into a match.

[Singlestack]

Ever see a swinging magnetic plate rack that disappears behind hardcover, then reappears briefly, thereby making the multiple exposure requirements? Tell the junior shooter the five mikes and five FTEs had nothing to do with the prop.

So are you suggesting that we only use props that Junior shooters can hit?? I've seen Junior shooters get 5 mikes and a FTE on a stage with no moving targets.

[Liota]

I'm not so sure Ron doesn't hate them for the exact same reason.....

For those who haven't been paying attention, I believe any prop that causes new shooters to zero a stage is bad for the sport. Any prop that is prone to range failure is a pain in the butt as far as match administration, and any prop that introduces an element of luck in place of skill has no business as a test of shooting ability. I know those concepts are really hard for some folks to grasp, and others just plain disagree, but that's my story and I am sticking with it.

Ron,

I have to disagree. The Texas Star is not based in any way on luck. It responds to the choices made by the competitor.

As a competitor, I am responsible for where my rounds go when I squeeze the trigger. Hence, which plate I engage is entirely my choice. If I exercise poor form or don't perform my skills correctly, the target array responds accordingly. In short, the Texas Star is all about skill. No luck is involved.

v/r,

Liota

[boo radley]

So are you suggesting that we only use props that Junior shooters can hit?? I've seen Junior shooters get 5 mikes and a FTE on a stage with no moving targets.

Just as an anecdote, there was a local match in my area a couple months ago that had a Texas Star on one stage, then TWO more on the next stage, protected by no-shoots.

There were many new/inexperienced USPSA shooters at this match, and it made for a long day. They also aren't a lot of fun to keep setting up, after each shooter, especially if the spring that retains the plate is rusty, and it's cold.

I kinda like 'em, but as a once-in-a-while deal. I'm not very good at them, yet, but getting better, and I can certainly agree with L2S that the advantage goes to those that have a chance to practice on them.

[Liota]

As for presenting the same problem to each shooter. If you mark the plates and start with it in the same position everytime it would be better but it still doesnt fix the other problems I wrote about.

Chuck,

Your complaints in this post have more to do with poor RO'ing, than props. It is the RO's responsibility to make sure the stage presents each competitor with the same challenge. When I did it in the last Texas State 3-Gun, my stage, with a myraid of props ( 1 star, two 2-armed plate swingers, a drop-turner, a bear trap, a Dale's Dastardly Device, and at least one regular swinger) ran with no other problems than the drop-turner. Everything else ran exactly as designed, including the star. The main reason? I made sure that everything was on its marks every time for every competitor. It took one more loop around the stage between competitors, but ensured everyone got the same set up. Everything ran on time, maybe a little ahead.

v/r,

Liota

Edited March 2, 2006 by Liota