Saiga-12

[Religious Shooter]

Maybe... if the match is rife with those type of stages.

But take a look at the recent '06 SMM3G. How many select slug/shell situations where there? There were none as far as I remember. The Saiga would have been superior to a tube gun in all of the stages at the 06 SMM3G.

At the 05 Nationals in Vegas there were two stages that had slug and shot together.

On stage one at the 05 Nationals you had to load the four slugs at the end. You have a 2.5 second (using your numbers) reload with the Saiga vs. reloading four shells with a tube gun which maybe is 3-4 seconds for the good reloader. The Saiga has a .5-1.5 second advantage right there.

I don't remember exactly how many bird shells you had to reload prior to the end... but let's say 6. With the Saiga it takes 2.5 seconds to reload the magazine. With a tube gun you are looking at maybe 4.5-6 seconds (.75 - 1 second per shell) to reload 6. You are looking at a 2-3.5 second advantage for the Saiga in reloading 6. Couple that with the above numbers the Saiga shooter would have had an estimated 2.5-5 second advantage over a hand fed tube gun.

The other stage would have had similar results and would have ended up with the detachable mag shotgun at an advantage over a fixed mag shotgun.

I think the advantage of the tube gun in select slug scenario is overstated as you can mix the contents of a mag.

[SinistralRifleman]

Mag fed would have been an advantage at Mystery Mountain simply because I can load mags a lot easier with gloves on than individual shells. And when your hands go numb a mag is still easier than individual shells as it requires less manual dexterity.

[SinistralRifleman]

Well our Saigas came back from RAA today....the welds on the muzzle device look like crap. I'll probably polish them up and refinish the guns.

Now the tinkering will commence!

Edited April 1, 2006 by SinistralRifleman

[ewokUk]

How different are the new batch from the old ones?

I saw a guy competing with one a week ago & his mag changes were more like 25 seconds, not 2.5!

He had a system where he dumped the original mag, turned the gun over, held open the bolt with his left hand & tried to cram in the mag (plastic 10 shot ones) with his right. He always seemed to be fighting it & nothing went smoothly.

[Wakal]

Sounds like a guy who has no clue what he is doing.

First, fit the magazine to the shotgun. A bit of sanding and polishing to make the magazine fully lock into place and drop free when the latch is out of way is the goal here.

Second, fit an extended mag release lever to the shotgun so that you can keep your paw on the pistol grip and drop the mag free (or you can use the "swipe the mag catch with the leading edge of the new magazine, then come back and lock the new mag in place...a bit slower, but not that bad).

Third, clean up the follower and bevel the bolt so that you can seat a full magazine without wasting time being stupid ("stupid" being holding the bolt open manually or by mucking about with the various (worthless) bolt-hold-open devices available).

I can swap mags on my other shotgun faster than I can with a Saiga...but not by more than a second (and I don't practice much with a Saiga). Liota's converted S20 (the gun so trick that it took three separate gunsmiths to build ) reloads in my fumblefingers in 3 seconds, more or less. But then, I find the S20 to load faster than the S12. Fred thinks the other way, but opinions vary. All Fred knows is that second place wins the gun but all I got for first was a bigger flask

Alex

[glock_forty5]

Well our Saigas came back from RAA today....the welds on the muzzle device look like crap. I'll probably polish them up and refinish the guns.

Now the tinkering will commence!

What modifications do you think are needed to make the Saiga competitive?

[ewokUk]

Sounds like a guy who has no clue what he is doing.

First, fit the magazine to the shotgun. A bit of sanding and polishing to make the magazine fully lock into place and drop free when the latch is out of way is the goal here.

Second, fit an extended mag release lever to the shotgun so that you can keep your paw on the pistol grip and drop the mag free (or you can use the "swipe the mag catch with the leading edge of the new magazine, then come back and lock the new mag in place...a bit slower, but not that bad).

Third, clean up the follower and bevel the bolt so that you can seat a full magazine without wasting time being stupid ("stupid" being holding the bolt open manually or by mucking about with the various (worthless) bolt-hold-open devices available).

I can swap mags on my other shotgun faster than I can with a Saiga...but not by more than a second (and I don't practice much with a Saiga). Liota's converted S20 (the gun so trick that it took three separate gunsmiths to build ) reloads in my fumblefingers in 3 seconds, more or less. But then, I find the S20 to load faster than the S12. Fred thinks the other way, but opinions vary. All Fred knows is that second place wins the gun but all I got for first was a bigger flask

Alex

Thanks for the comments - I'll pass on the modifications, how much of the bolt do you have to bevel, just a small amount or would he need to get it machined?

Thanks

mike

[SinistralRifleman]

What modifications do you think are needed to make the Saiga competitive?

I don't know about competitive, but to make it more user friendly, I will be sending it to Tromix to have the fire control group moved forward, ACE stock set installed, Tromix muzzle brake installed, and the gas system adjusted to run reliably with lighter loads (though it already seems to).

pics of the Tromix Brake:

The main thing I need is high cap mags that don't cost an arm and a leg...

Edited April 5, 2006 by SinistralRifleman

[Wakal]

There are a lot of ways to convert Saigas. Our own Professor McCoy was the first in the San Angelo crowd to heavily modify a Saiga. His is a S20 with a new trigger group, mid barrel comp, custom mag well, and a low-mount Doctor sight. His magazines are built from two five-round mags per 10-round mag

Fred's gun: http://www.dreadnaught-industries.com/imag...s/Saiga12_1.JPG

Fred's is built on a S12, but is much the same as Kelly's. Mid barrel comp, (now) low-mount Doctor, barrel cut back, and the factory trigger group with a LOT of polishing.

I went a little different with my own S12 and Liota's S20. I think Liota's is a better gun (faster cycling, factory magazines, and a PolyChoke), but mine is nothing to sniff at (even if it is my backup gun ).

http://www.dreadnaught-industries.com/imag..._Open_dec05.jpg

Mine is the top one with the homemade 10-round magazines and the factory 8's. Liota's is the one with the factory 10's (note: Saiga factory 12 guage mags are 8 rounds only; the .410 and 20 guage are 10 round...but the biggest mag imported is the 5...).

Both of those are converted the same way. Tapco M4-type stocks, SAW grips, AK single-hook Tapco trigger groups (polished), oversized safety, oversized mag release, low-mount Dr K's Doctor mounts...Liota's has a vintage PolyChoke while my S12 has factory chokes. I think this configuration is the hot ticket, but that is just me

On the bolt...wish I was back in the States (for many reasons, guns being close to the top) so I could take pictures. If you pull a Saiga bolt out, you will see that there is the start of a bevel from the firing pin housing to the bolt lugs. Fred, Kelly, and I figured out that you could "radius" that bevel from the firing pin housing all the way to the lugs instead of the tiny factory cut. Hand files work fine; polish it up when you are done. Fred's sneaky trick is to round off all the square edges (and trim the "legs" back) on the magazine followers, too. That will give you an extra half-round which equates to a bit more play when loading to a full magazine.

I found that a guy with some hand tools and a bit of time could do a decent pistol grip/adjustable stock conversion for about $250 in parts. I got my Saigas at $135 a few years ago, and still see them in the $200-250 range with the new imports. The only hard part is the magzines...there are a few places that will send you factory 8's and 10's, though, and you can always make your own 10's out of two fives. That is a much harder (but not impossible) thing to do. I sure wish someone who was an expert in, oh, AR15 plastic integrated lowers would dabble in magazines...

Alex

[38superman]

Pardon my ignorance but what is to keep the BATF from declaring the shotgun a "Destructive Device" and banning importation just as it did with the USAS 12?

Just because the asault weapons ban has gone away, has nothing to do with whether a firearms is classifed as a DD under the NFA.

Am I wrong?

Tls

[Wakal]

You are not wrong. Under the 1968 GCA, Big Daddy Government can do whatever the hell they want with any firearm having a bore over .500". Every 12 guage in the country is owned because they decided that the specific shotgun models were "particularly suited for sporting purpose."

Read Gilbert v. US (the challange to the USAS-12 DD ruling)...the official position of the US Government is (paraphrased due to poor memory; look it up ) that just because a gun is good for police or practical type competition, it is not "sporting." Shotgun "sports" are duck hunting.

Current highly placed (from the importer's trusty office minions ) internet sources indicate that the BATFE threatened both the former and current Saiga importer to call the Saiga shotguns "destructive devices" IF the importer brought any magazine over five rounds into the US. Stroke of the pen, law of the land (to quote the staff of the last ex-President).

The Saigas in my previous post would not be allowed to be imported in that configuration. The portion of law dealing with that is 922®. However, the BATFE has been nice enough (laugh) to tell us how to get around that pesky piece legal fiction by reducing the "parts count" of each shotgun to below the number of parts necessary to label it as "imported." Hence all the Tapco "US made" parts However, 922® and the DD thing are two different items; the BATFE can declare anything .500 bore diameter and over a DD with the stroke of a pen, just like they did with the USAS-12 and the Striker-12. They did allow a "grandfathering" period so people could register their now-NFA firearms at no charge (but with the usual stack of paperwork).

The Second Amendment does not mean what it says. The First Amendment, however, has all sorts of "implied" meaning that the left is still discovering

Alex

[SinistralRifleman]

I sure wish someone who was an expert in, oh, AR15 plastic integrated lowers would dabble in magazines...

Alex

There is a guy in Phoenix working on 10 rounders...if someone is close to completion, we'd rather not compete with them on what will be a somewhat specialty item.

Time will tell though....it might be worth us doing something.

BTW I think it is less likely that the Saigas will be declared DDs because 1) the court case Alex mentions specifically names the weight of the USAS-12 as one of the reasons it was not suitable for sporting purposes, the Saiga-12 is half the weight. 2) Saiga-12s are all being imported in sporting/hunting configurations and are being converted after the fact or not at all.

It is still possible though...if a DD delcaration happens I'll probably buy a few to sit on for investment purposes.

[Wakal]

Gilbert v. US also mentioned the "detachable military-style magazine" and "large number of rounds" as deciding factors...the USAS-12 weight was mentioned, I think, because that shotgun is a hawg! The Striker 12 is not that heavy and I don't remember weight being mentioned in conjunction with that shotgun

There are people "working" on purpose-built 10-round 12 gauge magazines, but no one has put anything on the market yet despite years (in one case) and a year (in two cases) of talking. It would be nice if someone actually did something

Alex

[jhgtyre]

I split Sinistralrifleman's question about reloading the Saiga w/ 5 round magazines into a seperate topic. Please look check it out here.

Thanks,

-Larry

[SinistralRifleman]

Here's what a shooter from Finnland did with his:

[Loves2Shoot]

OK, that is COOL!!!

[Middle Man]

Hole-y Tank Compensators Batman!

[bpowe]

I sure wish that version of the Saiga was available in the US ... That's the police/military version with the straight in magwell - you have to be able to reload faster with it than the standard AK style mag system. I also wouldn't mind having one of his chevron brakes!

Bill

[markO]

I sure wish that version of the Saiga was available in the US ... That's the police/military version with the straight in magwell - you have to be able to reload faster with it than the standard AK style mag system. I also wouldn't mind having one of his chevron brakes!

Bill

talk to fred he can get you one I think

[Wakal]

Fred's is a one-off hand-machined prototype. He won't make one for me OR Bill

Or even for Liota

Alex

[Liota]

He might make one for me. I haven't asked.

Liota

[Sako92S]

Here's what a shooter from Finnland did with his:

Maybe you wanna see this shotgun and himself in action (open division and stage winner)

http://users.tkk.fi/~stnurmi/MVI_5636.AVI