Point Of Diminishing Return For Trigger Pull?

[revchuck]

I was going to hijack a different thread, but figured I'd just start another one.

A lot of folks have DA triggers in the sub-5 lb. area, and there are some good 'smiths working to get them as low as they can with reliable operation.

I have to wonder, in light of the fact that Jerry Miculek habitually cleaned everyone's clock for years using full power factory springs, how necessary is it to have a super-light DA pull? I can fully understand having one just for the coolness factor.

In discussions about split times, someone always rains on the parade by stating/pointing out that split times are the least thing to worry about when trying to improve times, with larger gains coming from better shooting, faster reloads and more efficient movement. I recognize that a smoother trigger contributes to better shooting, but where is the break point for weight of pull?

To put this in context, I'm not a newbie, but I am one of those shooters whose enthusiasm outweighs their expertise. I'm wondering if my relative lack of ability is the limiting factor in understanding this easily.

[SRT Driver]

I've heard that Jerry likes heavier, more positive trigger reset. As we all know, this means a heavier rebound spring which usually has to be lightened up to reduce double action pull.

I don't think Jerry runs as light a rebound spring as most do.

He likes a serrated trigger as opposed to a smooth.

[underlug]

I was going to hijack a different thread, but figured I'd just start another one.

A lot of folks have DA triggers in the sub-5 lb. area, and there are some good 'smiths working to get them as low as they can with reliable operation.

I have to wonder, in light of the fact that Jerry Miculek habitually cleaned everyone's clock for years using full power factory springs, how necessary is it to have a super-light DA pull? I can fully understand having one just for the coolness factor.

In discussions about split times, someone always rains on the parade by stating/pointing out that split times are the least thing to worry about when trying to improve times, with larger gains coming from better shooting, faster reloads and more efficient movement. I recognize that a smoother trigger contributes to better shooting, but where is the break point for weight of pull?

To put this in context, I'm not a newbie, but I am one of those shooters whose enthusiasm outweighs their expertise. I'm wondering if my relative lack of ability is the limiting factor in understanding this easily.

I just received a Randy Lee revolver. The immediate benefits are a few hundredths off the splits coming from the lighter pull AND the faster locktime from the skeletonized trigger, greater accuracy, I feel, due to the faster locktime, and ease of use in single handed, strong and weak, shooting. Basically, there is some make up for the physical advantages that someone like a Miculek has (of course, not enough). If it could only make me run faster!!

[festus1]

I find that it is easier for me to shoot faster and with more precision with a lighter trigger pull. It is probably more apperent now with a good bit of arthritis in my hands than it was several years ago. As long as it goes bang every time I can't see a lighter trigger pull as being anything but positive. The action from Randy Lee is the smoothest I have felt also. You are right about smoothness being just as important as the weight. I have very little cartilage left in either of my knees so for me faster splits is not much of a consideration bacause my ground speed is that of a fast turtle. However, that makes shooting clean all the more important. Chris

Speaking of running faster, maybe before getting my knee replecements I could ship the artificial joints off to Randy for his level 4 action job on them before the operations???

Edited January 30, 2006 by festus1

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

A lighter than normal trigger pull helps me with accuracy. What I can do to my own revolvers is enough to enhance my accuracy to a point where I can live with it. A Randy Lee or Pinnacle or anyone else trigger job would not benefit me to the point of justifying the expense. I just plain move too slow (knees and ankles not what they used to be)

My carry revolver has a smooth light pull but not too light. I have played with triggers over the years and always go back to the .400 serrated as fitting my hand the best.

If there is a point of "diminished returns" I think for me it would be going any further than I have.

Light and smooth is good. Too light tends to feel mushy to me. Guess I am just not refined enough. (I don't drink wine, eat raw fish or quiche either )

[Carmoney]

Jerry is using a lighter action these days. He says he's "outgrown" the need for heavy stock springs.

If the action is smoothed and lightened in balanced fashion, you can reduce the weight of the trigger pull dramatically and still be able to run the gun wicked fast.

For most of us, the lightened actions will be more helpful in rolling the trigger smoothly on the longer, tougher shots. Close up stuff where the fast splits come into play, it'll make little or no difference.

In my view, the point of diminishing returns is reached when the gun is reaching the raw edge of ignition reliability. As I have posted elsewhere, I have seen several shooters with the super-light actions have the occasional "click" in the heat of battle.

In my guns, in my hands, with my ammo, the threshold is about 5 pounds. I don't trust them any lighter. A genuine Randy hammer (instead of one of my grotesque forgeries) might allow me to take off a few more ounces from the pull. Maybe.

After that, you're in reliability limbo. Every primer in every round must be seated perfectly. The brass must be consistent. The moonclips must be from the Hearthco Super-Platinum Executive Collection. The endshake must be reduced to almost nothing (which can create its own problems). And the gun must be kept squeaky clean.

That's just too much fussing around for me.

I need my gun to work 100% of the time--not 99%--with the large quantity of mixed .45 brass and moonclips I've accumulated over the past 18 years of shooting these things. (What can I say, I've become sorta attached to the stuff!) I don't want the stress of having to run to a safe area or hide in a porta-potty after every stage to brush out the chambers and under the star to make sure my gun will work. I want to know I can shoot a whole 12-stage 240-round match without ever brushing it once, and still have every moonclip drop in easily under pressure, and have the gun go bang every time I pull the trigger. Every time.

Different shooters may have different thoughts on this, and that's cool. And I think it's great that some talented, forward-thinking folks are working to wring out the maximum technical potential from our competition revolvers. But I still say this is not an equipment race, and whatever momentary envy I might have for somebody's super-light action goes away when the buzzer goes off and the money's on the line.

[dajarrel]

For me, smoothness is more important than lightness. I still have the annoying habit of occasionally "double-clutching" or pulling the trigger before the action is reset. I almost have to have the full power rebound spring for consistancy.

But if the action is smooth, I don't even seem to notice having to pull a little harder.

It may all change some day, but right now, a smoooooth 8-9 lb trigger that consistantly pops the Federal primers if I put the round together correctly, is what I want.

I like to keep it simple,

FWIW

dj

[AzShooter]

How light is enough?

When you can pull through smoothly and make your shots it's light enough. I've shot 7 pound triggers for years that worked every time with every ammo.

Now, I shoot a Randy Lee action on my 627 and it is set right at 4.5 lbs. I love it and have found I can shoot more accurately when shooting longer shots. My split times have improved a bit on short shots also.

But when is it too light? When the trigger doesn't reset itself, or when you don't get 100% reliability on primer strikes.

Every week I see guys shooting their slicked up revos and they skip a cylinder because the rebound spring is too light. Some just say they are getting use to the new trigger work but how long should it take?

I agree with Carmoney that the ignition must be reliable as well.

I use Hearthco moons in my 627 but in my 625 I have over 100 of the old reliable moons from Ranch Products and they work just fine and I'm too cheap to buy any more.

Revchuck if you have a smooth reliable trigger now it would benefit you more to go out and practice with it until you can make any shot you need to. Practice shooting 25 yard groups. Practice weak and strong hand. Practice, practice, practice.

If every cylinder fires the first time through you are way ahead of the guy that has to cycle through the gun a second time even if his split times are super fast.

Just my opionion.

[RPM8shot]

QUOTE: "I don't want the stress of having to run to a safe area or hide in a porta-potty after every stage to brush out the chambers and under the star to make sure my gun will work."

OMG!! I thought I was the only one who did that.

QUOTE: "I want to know I can shoot a whole 12-stage 240-round match without ever brushing it once, and still have every moonclip drop in easily under pressure, and have the gun go bang every time I pull the trigger. Every time."

AMEN!!

I have used a Randy Lee preped gun (about 4-5 lbs) a while back on Far and Near Standards (scored a 19 6 points down from the 25 I shot during the match) and I can say that the lighter trigger helps on the Long shots. I notice the benefit on the transition between targets. With the lighter trigger I can prep and keep the gun much steadier with the lighter pull. This was one of the few time I could get at least 4-6 A/X zone hits consistently at 50 yds.

The trigger reset on the Randy Lee gun was just as good/fast if not better than my gun.

On the closer targets the lighter action took some getting use to. Since I was and still am used to a slightly heavier trigger prep I would get the occasional "Dam*!, where did that one go." After I got accustomed to the action my shot spead was reduced by an inch or two compared to my normal 6.5lb gun (Miculek spring kit Clark custom prepared) and my split times averaged .16-.18 while maintaining the A zone hits at 7yds. I could rip off some .16-.14 at times but I am not on paper for a few of those shots.

Honestly, I did not have enough time with the loaner gun to make a full assesment so my comments are limited to what I noticed and experienced right off the bat with the light action gun. No failure to fires is about 150 rounds of rapid play.

Carmoney,

I agree; maintain 100% with reliability while giving up a few ounces of reduced pull.

For me:

The point of diminishing return is where reduced pull sacrifices 100% reliability and cost outweighs benefit.

If you have a 100% tricked out gun and you control the quality of the ammo used then you could probably get closer to the limit line of unreliabilty.

Renny

[underlug]

I find that it is easier for me to shoot faster and with more precision with a lighter trigger pull. It is probably more apperent now with a good bit of arthritis in my hands than it was several years ago. As long as it goes bang every time I can't see a lighter trigger pull as being anything but positive. The action from Randy Lee is the smoothest I have felt also. You are right about smoothness being just as important as the weight. I have very little cartilage left in either of my knees so for me faster splits is not much of a consideration bacause my ground speed is that of a fast turtle. However, that makes shooting clean all the more important. Chris

Speaking of running faster, maybe before getting my knee replecements I could ship the artificial joints off to Randy for his level 4 action job on them before the operations???

Festus, we may be kindred spirts. We share a few of the same problems and a Randy Lee gun, which, though I may not be able to exploit to its full potential, I thoroughly enjoy. I love the thought of a #4 on my knees. I'm looking to some new knees in the future, also. I wonder if he can do anything with artificial hips? Good luck and I wish you no low ports in the future

[Randy Lee]

How light a trigger pull is really a matter of personal preference. Some benefits are physical, some are psychological. If having a lighter trigger pull allows you to perform at your best, then it is worth the cost.

Most of us accept the fact that we will never match Jerry for speed. When I ran Jerry's gun over the Chrono at the IRC years ago, my guess is that his pull weight was 5-5.5 lbs. That's not particularly heavy in my book.

As you drop your trigger pull weight, technical issues of reloading practice and equipment(i.e. moonclip straightness) soundness become more critical. As Mike said, more fussing may be required. For some it is worth it, for others it is not.

I think we pretty much agree that no matter what pull weight, the stroke must be smooth. I like to think my trigger work yields the best blend of both. Sometimes 'smiths only work on one of the two issues. The results are often less than stellar.

For me and my limp wristed shooting style , 4.0 lbs seems to work best for run n' gun applications. For Steel Challenge I like my sub 3 lb pull. Split time isn't as critical for me as finessing the trigger as I see the dot move onto the plate.

As you guys have also pointed out, the gun needs to go bang. There can always be an occasional bad primer, but it should be a very rare occurrence. I've seen guns with factory trigger pulls go "click" at the IRC.

There are many of my clients who cannot physically pull a trigger greater than 5 lbs. I like the idea that people(including women) who would not otherwise shoot round guns actually find it enjoyable. There are more new shooters joining the ranks of revolver shooters because they are no longer turned off by heavy trigger pulls.

[dajarrel]

Well put, Mr. Lee.

dj

[Randy Lee]

Thanks DJ,

Dave H.- can I have some unobtanium moonclips made too?

Edited January 31, 2006 by Randy Lee

[pskys2]

Wheew RPM8shot stick that trigger finger in a cup a water and watch it steam!! .14 splits!

I jump up and down, run to the roof top and crow (so the better half says) everytime I get under .20.

I've always had more trouble short stroking with heavier pulls. But, if I push myself I can short stroke anything, even a 1911. Being a mechanic who always believed in getting a Bigger Hammer, well the bigger the hammer the harder the grip. The harder the grip the less finesse with anything, let alone a trigger finger.

I do love my Randy Lee 4# Action Job, it's so smooth and buttery. Wonder how it'd go with grits?

[Randy Lee]

Wheew RPM8shot stick that trigger finger in a cup a water and watch it steam!! .14 splits!

I jump up and down, run to the roof top and crow (so the better half says) everytime I get under .20.

I've always had more trouble short stroking with heavier pulls. But, if I push myself I can short stroke anything, even a 1911. Being a mechanic who always believed in getting a Bigger Hammer, well the bigger the hammer the harder the grip. The harder the grip the less finesse with anything, let alone a trigger finger.

I do love my Randy Lee 4# Action Job, it's so smooth and buttery. Wonder how it'd go with grits?

Someone said it tastes like chicken.

[zip308]

Im new to all of this, especially the revolver, and now I even want a 4.5 lbs pull more than ever. I have a friend that should be getting his "Randy Lee" gun back any day. I just know that my will be out the door the next day after I feel his!

[hearthco]

Thanks DJ,

Dave H.- can I have some unobtanium moonclips made too?

I think Im starting to get a complex

I should be able to run more of the new and improved solid, spring steel 625 clips in the next couple of weeks.

I know this is drift, but seeing as Carmoney mentioned my clips, I think the moderator should allow.

[RPM8shot]

Randy,

Mmmm I like chicken. Now I just have to get an MIM gun.

pskys2,

Sub .20's not too shabby. As long as you are accurate and consistent.

Yeah, I get the sub .14's (while addressing multiple targets)with my RPM8 but I'm not on the paper as I would like. If I slow to the .16-.18 range I can get 6 A's. I did have a few strings a while back of 6 shots from the low ready 3 targets at 7yds of .84, .86 .86. 6 A's(subtracting first shot reaction time). When I am trying to get into the sub.14 range, I tend not to be able to call my shots so I think mine is a problem not seeing fast enough. (with a 6-7lb action)

Bill Drill is different. .14-.16 splits are very doable with all A's. If i could keep it together during a match................

Randy brings up a great point about some potential shooters shying away from Revolver shooting because of the heavy trigger pull. For some people a sub 5lb trigger would make sense.

Personally, my wife has not gotten involved in Revolver shooting because of the heavy action pull. For her, even 6# causes fatigue to set in toward the end of a match. Now she has no excuse.

Thanks to those innovative individuals whose constantly push our sport forward.

Now if I can just find time to get out to the range.....................

[Randy Lee]

Now if I can just find time to get out to the range.....................

I hear you on that one Renny!

Seems like the only practice I get now is test firing other people's guns...

[RPM8shot]

OH SNAP!!!

Take care

[jmorris]

For the 45’s

All of that NT brass you’ve thrown away can help the ignition problem (small primers vs. large) without going too light on the rebound spring. If you use 45-gap brass you get the benefit of small primers and can load the clips without tools.

[festus1]

I was going to hijack a different thread, but figured I'd just start another one.

A lot of folks have DA triggers in the sub-5 lb. area, and there are some good 'smiths working to get them as low as they can with reliable operation.

I have to wonder, in light of the fact that Jerry Miculek habitually cleaned everyone's clock for years using full power factory springs, how necessary is it to have a super-light DA pull? I can fully understand having one just for the coolness factor.

In discussions about split times, someone always rains on the parade by stating/pointing out that split times are the least thing to worry about when trying to improve times, with larger gains coming from better shooting, faster reloads and more efficient movement. I recognize that a smoother trigger contributes to better shooting, but where is the break point for weight of pull?

To put this in context, I'm not a newbie, but I am one of those shooters whose enthusiasm outweighs their expertise. I'm wondering if my relative lack of ability is the limiting factor in understanding this easily.

I just received my 66-5 with a 2 1/2 inch barrel back from Randy Lee last Friday. It is a carry gun. It came back with a 6 lb. even trigger pull. Over the weekend we put about 250 rounds of assorted factory ammo thru it with no problems including 50 rounds of Sellier and Bellot which I have been told has one of the hardest primers of any factory ammo. I just bought a new 586 carry comp made in 2000 and shot it along with the 66. It has not made its pilgrimage to Randy's work bench yet so the trigger pull is quite heavy. The 66 was much much easier to shoot quickly and accurately with. If I had to choose which I'd want to bet my life on in a high pressure situation it would definitely be the 66. Chris

[Carmoney]

Thought I would revive this thread to report on my latest action work, done on my "back-up" 625, which I purchased and slicked up while my "main" 625 is off getting hard-chromed.

It's a 625-4, with forged innards and hammer-mounted FP, and seems to have the usual peening for earlier stainless guns--meaning there is visual evidence of some peening on the cylinder stop notches which seems to have work-hardened to the point that it has stabilized without causing skipping problems.

I skeletonized the hammer as per my usual process, and reduced the tension on mainspring and rebound spring as much as possible and still have 100% ignition. So far, so good. When messing with the gun, though, I noticed that I had a tendency to short-stroke it every once in awhile, which is not something that happened regularly with my other guns. I figured maybe my finger's still just a little sluggish from being stuck inside all winter....

But in the first two matches I shot with it, at least once each match I found myself short-stroking it, then having to click-click-click all the way around to pick up the shot. Not good. In comparing this gun's action to my other revolvers, it's clear the trigger rebound isn't quite as lively.

Moral of the story: Reduce spring tensions in balance, but don't get too light on the rebound side of the equation if you're planning to run the gun fast on close targets.

[Waltermitty]

This is where I think guys like Randy Lee earn their money. I've had a challenging adventure trying to get my two 625-8's to run "the same". They were not "the same" starting at the manufacturing plant. Just the differences that S&W built into the guns (not to mention the difference in mileage and the variance in my work) has made it necessary to give each gun a slightly different set of treatments and remedies.

So +1 on your conclusion, and be prepared to do different things to arrive at the same place even with "identical" guns.

BTW, I gave my "B" gun the "Claw Hammer" treatment. It looks slicker, but I haven't been able to get down to the trigger pull of my "Carmonized" gun. It's getting a little late in the season to make any more major modifications so I may just have to leave it for a while and put up with a little higher pull.

That is, unless you find the secret of that 3 1/2# trigger pull and share it with me...

[Carmoney]

This is where I think guys like Randy Lee earn their money.

Randy's the best, but I'm not yet 100% sold on the idea of the super-light actions on IPSC guns.

The action on my 625-4 felt wonderful and did not seem to have sluggish trigger rebound until I was really pushing the gun hard on very close targets. (I can't shoot as fast as Jerry but I can crank 'em out pretty quick when I put my mind to it....) The double-clutch problem is completely gone now that I switched in a rebound spring with just a bit more oomph.

I said it before, and I'll say it again, for me the point of diminishing returns is around 5 pounds. It might even be more like 6.