.40 Reloads W/ Mg 180 Jhp + Titegroup

[urnsrus]

Just finished cronographing some loads. I was using TG @ 4.9 gr. with Montana Gold JHP 180 gr. with an OAL of 1.205. The PF came back at an even 160 after testing several loads. I do not feel comfortable given current data in going higher on the powder, therefore, I want to ask everyone what the possible ratio is for OAL vs. PF. If I go down to 1.200 or 1.195 how much (if any) difference would/should that make. Now, final part to my question was that it was an overcast day with very high winds and about 40 degree.

David Adams

[Flexmoney]

Only (mainly) adjust your OAL for feeding reliability. Don't go adjusting it for power.

Pick up your brass as you shoot, check it for signs of pressure. Work up slowly, check for pressure signs as you go.

[urnsrus]

The loads are feeding excellent. That is why I hesitate to change the OAL, however, I think factory loads are around 1.135 which my new SV handles well also. It was my understanding that the OAL can adjust pressure and velocity....true or false?

[AikiDale]

True. Get an OAL as close to factory that feeds 100% in your gun. Then work up a load that meets your PF requirement. I use 4.0 to 4.2 grains of TG for steel and 4.5 to 4.7 for major depending on bullet.

[Crusher]

Some loads used by USPSA shooters to make maj. PF are NOT in the books (as in reloading manuals) therefor many work up loads very carefully. I don't use TG (but freinds do) I use VV 320 and 180 Gr head (precision delta) at an OAL of 1.190 ( long loaded generally reduces pressure when compaired to shorter OAL) and worked up to the current powder weight of 5.1 gr for a PF of 169-171. VV loading data DOES NOT LIST 320 for use with a 180 gr head so I started at 4.1 and worked up slowly, chronoghraphing and checking cases (both visualy and with a micrometer) for signs of excessive pressure along the way.

As a by product of working a maj load with VV 320 and various head weights I was able to find a MP (Mouse Phart) load I use on steel and for minor PF.

Be carefull if you use powder/head combination that there in no manufacturer data published for because you can run into trouble real fast.

One final note is bullet setback (the inability of the case tension to keep a bullet at a specfic OAL during cycling) THIS IS VERY BAD and WILL CAUSE case rupture under some circumstances which can result in CATASTROPHIC results to the gun, shooter, bystanders or all three.

[dansy]

For my standard (STI Edge) in Canada I need 170 PF....so my load is 5.0gr of TiteGroup with 180 MG JHP and CCI SP Primer, loaded at 1.200" almost no crimp, PF 175 or so...I used the 10mm load since it's loaded at almost the same lenght.....

Edited January 14, 2006 by dansy

[45gunner]

Just finished cronographing some loads. I was using TG @ 4.9 gr. with Montana Gold JHP 180 gr. with an OAL of 1.205. The PF came back at an even 160 after testing several loads. I do not feel comfortable given current data in going higher on the powder, therefore, I want to ask everyone what the possible ratio is for OAL vs. PF. If I go down to 1.200 or 1.195 how much (if any) difference would/should that make. Now, final part to my question was that it was an overcast day with very high winds and about 40 degree.

David Adams

Hodgton show the following load on there web site for a

180 GR. HDY XTP bullet.

TITEGROUP 4.7 978 33,300 PSI

MG bullet are very slow(don't seal the barrel well) because the bullet is made from brass and need higher pressure to achive the required velocity (916 fps with 180 gr ) bullets.

Your barrel may also be slow and along with the cold weather may be the reason for the low pf..

When I shoot with 4.7 gr of TG with my Para using an 180 gr bullet the velocity variation are about 70 fps so my load must be about 4.8 - 5.0 to make major.

I will try to find some more TG loading guides and get back with you to see if there are any concerns

[urnsrus]

Thanks guys. 45Gunner, your comment on both the MG bullets and my barrel may actually be the case when coupled with cold weather. This is a brand new SV that I just got from Sandy after waiting almost a year :-(, but really love it once I got it. When examining my brass for overpressure, the brass has very diffenitive grooves from the rifling in the case. What is that all about? Buy you may be right. With the MG being slower than most, the new barrel and the weather, I may want to wait to re-chrono.

[38superman]

My SVI has a fluted chamber as well.

I have never had a load that swaged the brass into the flutes as you describe.

This definately sounds like something that bears futher review.

Are there any other signs of excess pressure?

Does this your gun mark the cases with other powder/bullet combinations?

Tls

[urnsrus]

Good questions tishores. Actually, it shouldn't be excessive pressure if it only chronographed at 160. Could it be the brass? I think I just bought it from Midway and it some I had not heard of. It is stamped HMS or something like that. In loading it, there have been several that the primer pockets were no good and I had to toss it. Since this is a very new SV, I haven't shot any other loads through it. However, next trip to the range, I will take some factory and see. It appears that the gun Sandy built is exactly like the Brittany on the inside of the front cover of Frontsight. Oh, btw, there was NO primer flow to indicate pressure.

[Sestock]

OK, Your SV has an Schuemann AET barrel. The fluting of the cases is normal.

I have used 180g MG's for the last four years in a Schuemann Ultimatch barrel.

My load is 5.0-5.1 gr of Titegroup, Winchester SR Primers, 1.170 OAL, a whole bunch of crimp. The load makes major all the time in all different climates and location.

[urnsrus]

You da man! I was just afraid to go much over the 4.9 load. Sounds like you have good success with yours. I will try and let you know when I chrono.

Thanks

[45gunner]

You da man! I was just afraid to go much over the 4.9 load. Sounds like you have good success with yours. I will try and let you know when I chrono.

Thanks

My buddy just got a Bedells gun with Schuemann barrel. The groves are put there because there is somthing that resembles rifling inside of the chamber that aid in extracting.

I have not seen anthing saying that using above 5.0 gr of TG is bad I have just not found any information.

The one thing that is interesting is why TG is not listed in the Speers manual for use in .40 s&w.

I keep asking on the forum but no one ever tells me. The maximum listed OAL for .40 is 1.125 but I see people on this forum loading .40 cal to 1.180.

What's the deal?

[revchuck]

I keep asking on the forum but no one ever tells me. The maximum listed OAL for .40 is 1.125 but I see people on this forum loading .40 cal to 1.180.

What's the deal?

Actually, some people load longer than that.

.40 S&W was originally designed to be shot in guns that were designed around the 9x19. The max overall length was arrived at as being the most reliable that functioned in those guns (S&W 4006).

Then folks started shooting it in 1911s, which were designed arount the .45 ACP (max OAL = 1.27"). They found that it worked more reliably in 1911s at the longer OALs. They also found that they could load 200 grain bullets that way without cramming the bases of the bullets to right above the flash hole. There is usually more freebore in the barrel of these guns, which permits the longer loading. The bullets in long-loaded .40s will engage the rifling in standard barrels before the round is completely chambered.

The long-loaded .40 S&W is almost exclusively a competition round used in USPSA/IPSC, which is why you see it mentioned so often here.

[45gunner]

I keep asking on the forum but no one ever tells me. The maximum listed OAL for .40 is 1.125 but I see people on this forum loading .40 cal to 1.180.

What's the deal?

Actually, some people load longer than that.

.40 S&W was originally designed to be shot in guns that were designed around the 9x19. The max overall length was arrived at as being the most reliable that functioned in those guns (S&W 4006).

Then folks started shooting it in 1911s, which were designed arount the .45 ACP (max OAL = 1.27"). They found that it worked more reliably in 1911s at the longer OALs. They also found that they could load 200 grain bullets that way without cramming the bases of the bullets to right above the flash hole. There is usually more freebore in the barrel of these guns, which permits the longer loading. The bullets in long-loaded .40s will engage the rifling in standard barrels before the round is completely chambered.

The long-loaded .40 S&W is almost exclusively a competition round used in USPSA/IPSC, which is why you see it mentioned so often here.

Are you saying that if I load to 1.180 that the bullet will be setting on the rifling in a standard barrel? That usually causes the chamber pressure to go up. How do I know if my Para 1640 has a standard barrel or not? I am guessing it does not but my question is how does one determine if they have a standard barrel?

So your telling me the only reason I would load this way is to shoot a 200 gr bullet or for more reliable feeding? If not shooting a 200 gr bullet what advantage does this serve? More reliable loading? Accuracy?

Edited January 16, 2006 by 45gunner

[revchuck]

Are you saying that if I load to 1.180 that the bullet will be setting on the rifling in a standard barrel? That usually causes the chamber pressure to go up. How do I know if my Para 1640 has a standard barrel or not? I am guessing it does not but my question is how does one determine if they have a standard barrel?

I have less personal experience with .40 S&W than any round I reload for, so take this with a grain of salt.

Find a piece of the thinnest brass you have. Size and bell it normally, but without powder and primer. Take a jacketed bullet and seat it way out there, say to 1.25". Crimp it as little as possible, but so that it still enters the chamber easily. Take a black magic marker and color the bullet with it. Pull the barrel out of your Para, and stick the dummy round in the chamber as far as it will go. You don't need a lot of pressure, just finger pressure until you feel it stop. You'll probably see the marks made by the lands where the rifling begins. If so, seat the bullet deeper by .01" and try again (including re-coloring the bullet). Keep going until the round will fall in all the way to the headspace step without any help. That's the absolute longest OAL you can use with that bullet. Most folks will back off another .01 to allow for the slight variations you can get when loading.

So your telling me the only reason I would load this way is to shoot a 200 gr bullet or for more reliable feeding? If not shooting a 200 gr bullet what advantage does this serve? More reliable loading? Accuracy?

If you can load longer, try it and see if it helps with reliability and/or accuracy. OTOH, if your gun runs at standard OAL and shoots well, there's no need to fix something that ain't broke. An advantage of using standard OAL is that pressure-tested loading data is available...not that many people on this board take that into account.

[45gunner]

Are you saying that if I load to 1.180 that the bullet will be setting on the rifling in a standard barrel? That usually causes the chamber pressure to go up. How do I know if my Para 1640 has a standard barrel or not? I am guessing it does not but my question is how does one determine if they have a standard barrel?

I have less personal experience with .40 S&W than any round I reload for, so take this with a grain of salt.

Find a piece of the thinnest brass you have. Size and bell it normally, but without powder and primer. Take a jacketed bullet and seat it way out there, say to 1.25". Crimp it as little as possible, but so that it still enters the chamber easily. Take a black magic marker and color the bullet with it. Pull the barrel out of your Para, and stick the dummy round in the chamber as far as it will go. You don't need a lot of pressure, just finger pressure until you feel it stop. You'll probably see the marks made by the lands where the rifling begins. If so, seat the bullet deeper by .01" and try again (including re-coloring the bullet). Keep going until the round will fall in all the way to the headspace step without any help. That's the absolute longest OAL you can use with that bullet. Most folks will back off another .01 to allow for the slight variations you can get when loading.

So your telling me the only reason I would load this way is to shoot a 200 gr bullet or for more reliable feeding? If not shooting a 200 gr bullet what advantage does this serve? More reliable loading? Accuracy?

If you can load longer, try it and see if it helps with reliability and/or accuracy. OTOH, if your gun runs at standard OAL and shoots well, there's no need to fix something that ain't broke. An advantage of using standard OAL is that pressure-tested loading data is available...not that many people on this board take that into account.

Yes I have done the same thing with rifle rounds. But for pistol bullets, in my experience, won't feed, at least from a .45, when loaded long and will not fit in the magazine. Loading long also decreases pressure which lowers the PF.

I will try this and see if it helps any after I get finished working on my Para. Thanks for the info.

[45gunner]

Are you saying that if I load to 1.180 that the bullet will be setting on the rifling in a standard barrel? That usually causes the chamber pressure to go up. How do I know if my Para 1640 has a standard barrel or not? I am guessing it does not but my question is how does one determine if they have a standard barrel?

I have less personal experience with .40 S&W than any round I reload for, so take this with a grain of salt.

Find a piece of the thinnest brass you have. Size and bell it normally, but without powder and primer. Take a jacketed bullet and seat it way out there, say to 1.25". Crimp it as little as possible, but so that it still enters the chamber easily. Take a black magic marker and color the bullet with it. Pull the barrel out of your Para, and stick the dummy round in the chamber as far as it will go. You don't need a lot of pressure, just finger pressure until you feel it stop. You'll probably see the marks made by the lands where the rifling begins. If so, seat the bullet deeper by .01" and try again (including re-coloring the bullet). Keep going until the round will fall in all the way to the headspace step without any help. That's the absolute longest OAL you can use with that bullet. Most folks will back off another .01 to allow for the slight variations you can get when loading.

So your telling me the only reason I would load this way is to shoot a 200 gr bullet or for more reliable feeding? If not shooting a 200 gr bullet what advantage does this serve? More reliable loading? Accuracy?

If you can load longer, try it and see if it helps with reliability and/or accuracy. OTOH, if your gun runs at standard OAL and shoots well, there's no need to fix something that ain't broke. An advantage of using standard OAL is that pressure-tested loading data is available...not that many people on this board take that into account.

Yes I have done the same thing with rifle rounds. But for pistol bullets, in my experience, won't feed, at least from a .45, when loaded long and will not fit in the magazine. Loading long also decreases pressure which lowers the PF.

I will try this and see if it helps any after I get finished working on my Para. Thanks for the info.

Just tried the test. I can load a bullet at at least to an OAL of 1.2. and it will feed in the magazine. I wil try 1.25 later. Looks like the accuracy and maybe will chronograph with less pressure variations. That would explain a lot. I will chrono it this weekend and see what happens..

[urnsrus]

45, when you chrono, let me know how your load specs. I am still tinkering with loads. As stated in my first message, it is coming in just shy of major @ 160. I am going to try bumping the powder and shortening the case to 1.170.

[45gunner]

45, when you chrono, let me know how your load specs. I am still tinkering with loads. As stated in my first message, it is coming in just shy of major @ 160. I am going to try bumping the powder and shortening the case to 1.170.

If the weather is not too bad I will do it this weekend.

[45gunner]

45, when you chrono, let me know how your load specs. I am still tinkering with loads. As stated in my first message, it is coming in just shy of major @ 160. I am going to try bumping the powder and shortening the case to 1.170.

Just got to chrono my new load. 4.7 gr Tightgroup with a MG 180 JFP loaded to 1.175 Oal.

PF = 853 * 180 / 1000 = 153.5.

Using a Para 16-40

Unfortunately I found this out at an IPSC match. I thought this would make major. I was wrong. Got bumped down to minor.

Going to try bumping the powder to 4.9~5.1

[rstandley]

I will tell you what guys, I load my .40 with 4.4 gr. of titegroup using 180gr zero JHP and win. small pistol primers. . OAL is 1.125. my power factor is 168 at 50 degrees. I am using a stock glock barrell.

[kevin c]

Glock barrels have the reputation of running faster than their traditionally rifled cousins, but I think that maybe only a couple or three tenths worth of difference in the powder charge. Glocks also can't run rounds loaded too long - they won't fit in the mags. Between a shorter round and a polygonally rifled barrel, much of the velocity/PF difference may be right there.

[tpe187]

I will tell you what guys, I load my .40 with 4.4 gr. of titegroup using 180gr zero JHP and win. small pistol primers. . OAL is 1.125. my power factor is 168 at 50 degrees. I am using a stock glock barrell.

I used the exact same recipe except for loading 4.5gr of Titegroup, at 55 degrees on Sunday and got a PF of 167.6 out of a glock 22. All guns are different, so make sure you chono your load before going to a match and finding out the hard way. Also remember to chrono at roughly the same time of day, as close to the same light conditions and test at the temperature ranges you might shoot them at. This is why most people aim for a 170pf for a little fudge factor.

For limited guns, loaded long, I found the the magazine was the limiting factor in OAL. The rounds would feed at 1.20 but I would get stacking in the mag toward the bottom and could only fit 18rds rather than 19 with an OAL of 1.185 Just something to look into.

[urnsrus]

This is a picture of the brass with the grooves referenced in my previous message. Although the pictures are not real clear, you can see the grooves and also included a picture of the primer which does not appear to have any flow. Still perplexed. 4.9 gr. of Titegroup with JHP MG 180 @ 1.205 length and a PF of around 160.

Thoughts??