Guess My Gun's Illegal ?

[Jman]

I shoot a XD40 Tactical. Quit reloading because I'd rather take a beating. Since I shoot only production I bought and dropped in a 'Fire Dragon' 9mm conversion. And, like a dork never REALLY read the rules. So far the RO's have shrugged it off due to the fact that our monthly matches are 'Class 1'. But, my slide and barrel markings don't match and technically this is a no no. $8%#!!! This bugs me. I don't now. Probably sell it all for a XD9 Tactical.

[Carlos]

"This bugs me. I don't know."

I believe you read the rules correctly. It would bug me too, since it appears that you did not gain any competitive advantage nor was it your intent to gain an advantage. Appears to be a matter of "rules is rules."

"Probably sell it all for a XD9 Tactical"

That appears to be the best course of action. Probably will get more $$ putting the .40 barrel back in & selling the conversion seperate from the gun.

[38superman]

No problem.

Nothing wrong with buying an XD9, but not really required to solve your issue.

You can shoot your 40 in production at minor power factor without reloading.

Put the stock parts back in your gun and buy some Precision Delta 40 ammo.

They offer reloaded 180 gr in minor power factor (at a reasonable price).

If you ever decide to try other divisions, your 40 cal XD can be a limited or lim 10 gun just by changing ammo.

Tls

Edited January 14, 2006 by tlshores

[Flexmoney]

I don't know the barrel measurements...

But, in a Glock, putting a 9mm barrel into a 40 gives it a "bull barrel".

I doubt I would see any difference in my scores for doing so, but the line needs to be drawn somewhere...

Minor 40 is as soft, or softer, than 9mm.

Edited January 14, 2006 by Flexmoney

[Patrick Sweeney]

Wait a minute. Am I reading this correct? You take an XD in .40 and drop in a 9mm barrel. OK, so just how does it differ from the same gun from Springfield in 9? (Besides the slide marking.) Same slide, same barrel o.d.

"A 9mm barrel in a .40 slide makes it a bull barrel" doesn't wash if the barrel is the same diameter in the conversion as it is in the factory 9mm.

If there is a dimensional difference between guns, I'd buy it. If someone figured out how to turn a Glock 20 or 21 into a 9mm, then they may have an advantage. But then again, maybe not. We can re-barrel a Glock 21 from 10mm to 40, and no one blinks.

So explain the logic (besides "rules is rules") of how such a beast isn't kosher. Please, I want to know.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Wait a minute. Am I reading this correct? You take an XD in .40 and drop in a 9mm barrel. OK, so just how does it differ from the same gun from Springfield in 9? (Besides the slide marking.) Same slide, same barrel o.d.

"A 9mm barrel in a .40 slide makes it a bull barrel" doesn't wash if the barrel is the same diameter in the conversion as it is in the factory 9mm.

If there is a dimensional difference between guns, I'd buy it. If someone figured out how to turn a Glock 20 or 21 into a 9mm, then they may have an advantage. But then again, maybe not. We can re-barrel a Glock 21 from 10mm to 40, and no one blinks.

So explain the logic (besides "rules is rules") of how such a beast isn't kosher. Please, I want to know.

Actually, I think that one was put to Amidon(G20, from 10mm to 40S&W), and he said no. Glock doesn't make a G20 in .40.

[Clay1]

Patrick, if you shoot in Limited 10 or Limited it doesn't matter. If you want to shoot it in Production it has to come off of the Production line like that. They don't make a G35 with a 9mm barrel or a G22 with a 9mm barrel. They do make a G34 with a 9mm barrel and a G17 in 9mm that are fine in Production. Either it is a Production gun or it is modified.

Is it a competitive advantage? - I don't think so; would a modified gun be a Production piece? - I don't think so either. Then whether right or wrong you come back to "Rules are rules".

Rick

[Patrick Sweeney]

Just to be a pain in the rear, suppose I buff the caliber markings off the slide? Is there anyone outside of the Springfield plant (or perhaps Croatia) who can tell without the markings which is which?

Again, if the parts in each are identical except for the width of the breechface and the size of the hole through the barrel, how can it matter if I switch from 40 to 9 or 9 to 40?

[Flexmoney]

Just for clarity...

Wait a minute. Am I reading this correct? You take an XD in .40 and drop in a 9mm barrel. OK, so just how does it differ from the same gun from Springfield in 9? (Besides the slide marking.) Same slide, same barrel o.d.

"A 9mm barrel in a .40 slide makes it a bull barrel" doesn't wash if the barrel is the same diameter in the conversion as it is in the factory 9mm.

If there is a dimensional difference between guns, I'd buy it.

I can't speak of the XD. Between the Glock 40 and the Glock in 9...there is a measurable difference. (I don't recall that it was huge, but I did measure it once.)

If someone figured out how to turn a Glock 20 or 21 into a 9mm, then they may have an advantage. But then again, maybe not.

More true, I just pulled out a G20...It has a larger OD than the G35.

We can re-barrel a Glock 21 from 10mm to 40, and no one blinks.

Only in Limited and Limited-10 (& Open). We can do it there as there is no caliber change by going from 10mm to 40S&W...they are both 0.400 (There is a rule in Limited/10 that says no caliber changes...so, you can't drop a 9x23 barrel into a G20 and be legal, except in Open. Not sure the origin of that rule...???)

In Production, Amidon has given the opinion that Glock doesn't make a G20 in 40...so, that gun is not in Production.

In Production, we can shoot 40 through the G20's 10mm barrel, however. I think we can thank the 357 and 38spl for that.

I've traded quite a few emails with Amidon on this stuff (as we have a G20 with a 40 barrel). That is his opinion on the matter.

-------------------

If the XD 9 and the XD 40 actually have the same outside barrel diameter, then I don't see there being an issue. Then again...I'm not at Amidon's pay grade, or that of the BOD (who votes on official interpretations).

Edited January 15, 2006 by Flexmoney

[Patrick Sweeney]

I sent an e-mail to Amidon. We'll see. It's not like the professor has never split hairs, nor argued angel density on pinheads before.

[Caspian_45]

Just to be a pain in the rear, suppose I buff the caliber markings off the slide? Is there anyone outside of the Springfield plant (or perhaps Croatia) who can tell without the markings which is which?

Again, if the parts in each are identical except for the width of the breechface and the size of the hole through the barrel, how can it matter if I switch from 40 to 9 or 9 to 40?

The first part would fall under external modification ... US Appendix D9 21.5. Which is a no no.

Now D9 21.3 only states that the barrel has to be the same length as factory standard. It doesn't say anywhere that the caliber has to be the same. How about you running that by Amidon?

[Patrick Sweeney]

Hey it's not like, on this theoretical XD, I plunged an end mill into the slide, lightening it. My plater just got a little heavy-handed prepping it for the hard chrome is all.

[Flexmoney]

We also need to remind people that the Production (USPSA) rules don't say "no external mods...anything goes on the inside". They say "...modifcations are VERY limited and include the following..."

[ampleworks]

"A 9mm barrel in a .40 slide makes it a bull barrel" doesn't wash if the barrel is the same diameter in the conversion as it is in the factory 9mm.

Maybe in a Glock but you cannot put a larger caliber barrel into a XD slide. You can only go down, not up in caliber (sig and 40 are same slides different etchings, 9mm won't convert to anything)

If you were to get a 9mm factory barrel and put into a 40, how different is that from taking a 34 or 35's mag release and putting it on a 17? I see no difference.

[j2fast]

No problem.

Nothing wrong with buying an XD9, but not really required to solve your issue.

You can shoot your 40 in production at minor power factor without reloading.

Put the stock parts back in your gun and buy some Precision Delta 40 ammo.

They offer reloaded 180 gr in minor power factor (at a reasonable price).

If you ever decide to try other divisions, your 40 cal XD can be a limited or lim 10 gun just by changing ammo.

Tls

This is exactly what I do, I travel for work and just don't have the time to reload right now. I shot reloads from Miwall all last year that chrono'd at about 143PF. Not as soft as some hand loads put a load softer normal factory loads like WWB, CCI, etc. This ammo paired with a 16lb recoil spring makes my XD40 Tact shoot very flat. As far as cost goes I pay a little less than .15 cents a round shipped for the Miwall ammo and it looks like the Precision Delta will be around the same price. I'm ordering one of their 250 round packs to give their stuff a try.

[RIIID]

The XD from the factory has three parts serial numbered, frame, slide, and barrel. After market barrels don't but looking at the caliber designation on the slide and serial number would tell that the caliber had be changed. If someone swaps frames the serial number will also tell what the caliber it should be ( US900000 would be 9mm, US 400000 would be .40). The slide profiles are also different between 9 and 40, the 40 has a larger profile which makes it weigh more and the internal 9mm cuts aren't made on the .40. The barrel outside diameters are also different between the 9mm and the .40.

Rich

[Patrick Sweeney]

So, based on serial numbers, we're not going to allow a 9 that was a 40? Let me get this straight:

A 9mm with a factory-stock 40 upper can be used as a Production gun (in 9) and a Limited gun (40)

But a 40 with a factory-stock 9 upper can't be used in Production, but is still kosher in Limited with the 40 on it?

Other than a digit in the serial number on the frame, the two combinations differ not a whit, but the "rules are rules" interpretation disallows the 40 with the 9 in Production? I think we're taking this range-lawyer interpretation of things a bit too far.

As long as a combination is a functional equivalent of an existing factory model, who cares where the pieces came from?

I've got to go lie down and apply some cold compresses to my forehead.

[Loves2Shoot]

1

[Patrick Sweeney]

OK, I got a response from John Amidon. Basically, if the slide is marked as to caliber, you can't just go swapping barrels. However, you could swap uppers, regardless of what the serial number code says, as Springfield makes XDs in 9 and 40 in all the sizes.

I'm still discussing with him how a rollmark could make a difference, but I'm not optomistic.

[JFD]

Sounds like a 9mm barrel in a .40 gets you a heavier slide than a stock 9mm.

Production seems to be a simple division. Buy the rules legal gun of your choice and play the damn game already.

But hey, there are cheaters in every sport so buff to your heart's desire.

OR screw around with the rules enough so that folks wondering where to shoot their box stock gun can be pointed towards another sport. USPSA will die a quiet death in a decade due to a lack of new shooters, but YOU will have saved a little over $400 not having to buy a new XD.

No smilies was not a mistake.

[shred]

The ugly truth of PD (both IPSC and USPSA) is that you can take parts and make an illegal gun that is identical in every way to a legal factory one. It's just the way it is.

This rankles people with engineering tempraments since they believe 1+1 = 2 no matter where the 1's came from.

IPSC is clear on the intent of PD:

"The vast, overwhelming majority of competitors around the world know that you're supposed to buy a gun on the list, then go shoot it, without trying to fiddle with the bloody thing."

In the USA we have a different mentality since many many people already have a gun and want to make it like something on the list, and not go buy something new that is.

[Patrick Sweeney]

OK, JFD, let's stop right there. The intention is not to cheat. The intention is to understand the rules, and find out what the logic of the construction of the edifice of rule-making is.

As for the engineering of it, Shred is right on. In the world I come from 1+1=2 no matter how you get the ones.

So, the idea is to just "buy the gun and shoot the game?" Then how to explain all the PD shooters who have fussed over the triggers of their Glocks? Or done any number of things allowed under the rules?

Better yet, explain this: I can't take a 40 XD and plug a 9mm barrel into it, because "Springfield never made an XD with a 40 slide and a 9mm barrel." But, I can take a 9mm XD, and before it ever sees a USPSA stage swap the barrel for a Bar-sto, install Bo-mar sights and get the trigger tuned to as light as I like. Despite the fact that Springfield does not offer a 9mm XD with Bar-sto barrel, Bo-mars and a 2# trigger, it is a Production-kosher gun. Huh?

[shred]

IPSC != USPSA. Thus the difference in US PD rules and, possibly, intent. All the things Pat mentions are not legal modifications for IPSC PD, which makes some sort of 'sense', given their intent.

As I have no insight into the reasoning behind the US PD rules (I can't remember an 'intent' statement posted as-such), I assume the differences are to do with the different situation here-- in the US we typically don't bring the PD-list with us when gun shopping and don't tend to buy new and shoot out of the box, hoping the manufacturer will see fit to include the bells and whistles we want, but modify what we have and like.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Sounds like a 9mm barrel in a .40 gets you a heavier slide than a stock 9mm.

Production seems to be a simple division. Buy the rules legal gun of your choice and play the damn game already.

But hey, there are cheaters in every sport so buff to your heart's desire.

OR screw around with the rules enough so that folks wondering where to shoot their box stock gun can be pointed towards another sport. USPSA will die a quiet death in a decade due to a lack of new shooters, but YOU will have saved a little over $400 not having to buy a new XD.

No smilies was not a mistake.

Your little rant would make sense if Production was a "box stock" Division. It's not. There are quite a few mods that can be done to Production division guns in the USPSA.

People were saying the USPSA was going to die a quiet death back in the 90's, they were wrong.

[38superman]

Wow.

In 24 posts we went from "my guns not legal" to the death of USPSA.

Amazing how much passion is engendered when discussing the rulebook.

Tls

Edited January 16, 2006 by tlshores