Can I start with both hands on one side?

[IVC]

8 hours ago, Alleycatdad said:

..and, you must also read ALL of the rules.  

 

Per the glossary, "Standing: The compeitior's body is fully erect with both feet planted firmly onthe ground or other designated position"

 

So, "Standing with wrists below belt"....

 

SA

... and you must also read the OP  - it doesn't say "standing." 

[Matt1911]

People who try to “game” it always annoy me. It ends up being a big waste of time with going back over the rules and wsb and bickering amongst each other to find out what is legal and what’s not. 
By the time it’s done, all the fun of the sport has been sucked away and then it feels more like a job. 

[Dr Mitch]

People who game it don’t win section, area, or national championships.

[NoSteel]

Purpose at this point of the start is to get a good proper grip after the beep.  Getting a poor grip .1sec faster than anybody else won’t really help you much…..

[racerba]

On 2/5/2024 at 10:44 PM, motosapiens said:

its worth trying it. just to convince yourself, but imho .2 is a wild exaggeration, and so is .1. in reality, it won’t save much of anything because your left hand still has to travel the same distance.

 

however, as an md, ro and stage designer, i specifically use vague and permissive wsb language to encourage people to overthink it and do stupid stuff instead of just shooting more points per second.

I said i was being generous... 

[IVC]

6 hours ago, Matt1911 said:

People who try to “game” it always annoy me. It ends up being a big waste of time with going back over the rules and wsb and bickering amongst each other to find out what is legal and what’s not. 
By the time it’s done, all the fun of the sport has been sucked away and then it feels more like a job. 

True, but it goes both ways - people who try to invent and enforce some sort of "spirit of the sport" are doubly annoying. The rule is "what's in the WSB is, what's not in the WSB isn't."

 

If the WSB isn't clear, just let people try whatever they want. Who cares if the guy starts the COF in some "crouching tiger-flamingo-dragon" pose? At best, the guy will gain less than 0.1 second, and more than likely he will lose about 0.5 seconds due to the unfamiliar starting position and having to get into the standard shooting position anyways. 

 

Nobody who can beat me will suddenly not beat me because either of us tried something unusual at the start of a regular COF. And for classifiers, where it might matter, there is no ambiguity about the starting position. The same goes for those I can beat. 

[IVC]

5 hours ago, NoSteel said:

Purpose at this point of the start is to get a good proper grip after the beep.  Getting a poor grip .1sec faster than anybody else won’t really help you much…..

^^^ This. Plus if the WSB doesn't specify it, it is allowed and up to the shooter to try whatever he wants. 

[IVC]

The problem with "gaming" was when it did matter, such as when, e.g., the wording on activators was that they "must be activated during the COF to avoid a procedural penalty." Since the COF does NOT end with the last shot, there was a way to activate them AFTER the last shot and not get penalized. Combined with the support structures of walls being part of the shooting area, there were some serious "misuses" of the rules.

 

While it was legal at the time, it got changed by changing the rules, the way it should be handled (and not by denying the shooting plan that is by the rules). In fact, the rules have evolved to SIMPLIFY starting positions by removing default position and subjective terms such as "relaxed at sides." The idea is precisely to prevent these types of issues, where anyone can start however they think it will help them.

 

In the end, the guy who shoots the most points in the shortest time wins. As it's always been (well, except for those times that required rule changes, but that's neither here nor there) ... 

[racerba]

9 minutes ago, IVC said:

True, but it goes both ways - people who try to invent and enforce some sort of "spirit of the sport" are doubly annoying. The rule is "what's in the WSB is, what's not in the WSB isn't."

 

But because we have gone through years of testing, almost everything has been tried.  But I believe in innovation and these people who tries to think outside the box will sometimes find a better and quicker way.  I don't fault people for trying...it's an essential part of our sport - to find and build a better mouse trap.

[Kiwishoot]

On 2/13/2024 at 3:27 AM, Dr Mitch said:

People who game it don’t win section, area, or national championships.

Yup. Need this on a hat

[Alleycatdad]

On 2/11/2024 at 9:52 PM, IVC said:

i... and you must also read the OP  - it doesn't say "standing." 

...indeed you are correct.  My bad, as usual..

 

SA

[Nik Habicht]

On 2/5/2024 at 1:45 PM, racerba said:

It can be done with wrists below belt...

My comment is that if you switch to this start position, how much time are you going to save vs your normal hands at side?
- it is not a normal start position, so you will not be as fluent as if you were to start with hands at side.  more start position will be with hands at sides...
- assumed you were fluent, you're going to save like 0.2 seconds (maybe - I think I'm being generous here)??  is it worth the risk for the small percentage of the time saved?
- and you are talking about your weak hand, which has little to do with the motion of the gun going from holster to ready to fire position...
Let's put this into perspective:

you will save 0.2 sec on a 5 second stage...let's say it's a 32 round course (impossible for a 5 sec stage - but let's go with that) and you shoot all Alphas:
160/5 = 32 HF
160/4.8 = 33.33 HF

So you gain just over a point on a perfect high HF stage...is it worth the risk???
 

And then a GM rolls through, shoots the same 160 points in three seconds, and you're looking at ~ 60% or ~ 62.5 of their score.  Then there's the risk/reward factor - can you manage the draw safely from that position?  How does it affect first shot accuracy? How about second shot accuracy?  By all means give it a whirl, focusing on being safe, and testing it with a timer on targets at different distances to see if it's really worth ti, or if a relaxed stance is better...