Questions about variations in performance with 9mm reloads...

[PaleoMan]

Hi!

 

I've been making 9mm reloads for about seven years for my pistols, trying different powders (because some are not available, and different bullets). The past few years, I've been using Precision Bullets; CFE Pistol powder; Fiocchi, CCI, and now Wolf primers. This month, I bought my first PCC and I'm testing my reloads to see if I can use the same reloads for both pistol and PCC.

 

For this batch, I used Precision Bullets 125 grain coated round nose bullets, Wolf primers, CFE pistol powder 4.66 gr (before I reload, I do about 10 drops, and then measure 5 drops and take the average), and SIG cases (I try to use the same brand of cases for a batch). The average OAL (I sample about 10 every 100), is ~1.115" with a maximum variation 0.004" in the sample.

 

I use a Dillon 650, and I try to make sure that when I'm seating a bullet, I also have a case being de-primed, so that the force required is similar.

 

So here are the questions...

 

I chrono'ed two sets of 10 rounds with my PCC (16" barrel) and got these results:

 

Average v0 fps   1063     1036
High fps         1113     1093
Low fps           984      968
Spread fps     129.72   124.60
Std dev         39.42    43.23
PF                132      129

A batch from August testing (also SIG cases, with average 4.68 gr CFE, OAL ~ 1.118) gave these results in my Walther Q5 Match (5" barrel):

 

Average v0 fps   1051     1074
High fps         1126     1100
Low fps           995     1050
Spread fps     131.65    49.55
Std dev         36.78    16.64
PF                131      134

 

 I bought some Syntech 124 gr (1 grain less) rounds to break in the PCC. They have an OAL of about 1.127" on average, are coated, flat nose rounds. Here are the results for the Syntech rounds using the PCC:

 

Average v0 fps   1217     1202
High fps         1242     1231
Low fps          1196     1168
Spread fps      46.03    63.45
Std dev         14.92    26.37
PF                151      149

 

Some Questions:

1. What could contribute to the large spread and standard deviation that I'm seeing in three of these four sames of my reload ammo? Could it be variation in OAL, load, and/or something else? I see this frequently (maybe 1/2 the time or more) and would like to try to understand why it occurs, and if there is something I should do differently.
2. I had chrono-ed a 3" barreled Hellcat in August and the PF was about 122 with my reloads. I guess I was expecting the PF for the PCC to be higher than what I saw with 5" barrel (~130). Any ideas as to why it is about the same?
3. Would the temperature (32-24 degrees F for the PCC tests, versus probably 70s or better for the August pistol tests) affect the PF and/or variation seen with this powder?
4. Granted, the Syntech use different powder, bullet shape, coating, and are in Federal cases, but can anyone speculate on factors that would contribute to higher and better performance? Is it strictly because of better consistency of the manufacturing process, or are there other factors?

 

BTW: I've seen similar spreads and std dev. when using CCI and later Fiocchi primers, so I'm assuming that the primer isn't playing a big role in the results.

 

You always hear that reloading is better, because you can fine tune your loads, but I don't see the precision that I'm getting with the Syntechs. I haven't tried other brands of commercial ammo.

 

It's more of a curiosity about the results I'm getting, but I'm hoping someone with some insight can enlighten me!

 

 

 

 

[Postal Bob]

Just some speculating. Never used Wolf primers, but I heard they are very hard. And maybe they're also not too consistant.

But your OAL of 1.115" is relatively short. I use 1.150". So your bullets are having to jump more before enganging the rifling. Unless your OAL is restricted due to the magazines, lengthen your OAL, and I believe you'll get better consistancy.

And yes, a temperature difference of that much will show a big difference in velocities.

Edited January 28 by Postal Bob

[PaleoMan]

4 hours ago, Postal Bob said:

Just some speculating. Never used Wolf primers, but I heard they are very hard. And maybe they're also not too consistant.

But your OAL of 1.115" is relatively short. I use 1.150". So your bullets are having to jump more before enganging the rifling. Unless your OAL is restricted due to the magazines, lengthen your OAL, and I believe you'll get better consistancy.

And yes, a temperature difference of that much will show a big difference in velocities.

Good to know about the primers. I do have some CCI primers, so I could make a batch with those.

 

I could play with the OAL. The Syntech are 1.127". I use these in a Walther Q5 Match SF, and in a Hellcat (for practice). I can play with the length and see how things go.

 

I know I was freezing trying to chrono the rounds. I want to try chrono-ing the reloads with the Walther Q5 with similar temps. All things being equal (temps, same reloads), should I expect to see higher PF from the 16" barrel vs the 5"?

 

So I'm thinking...

1. Check both the PCC and pistol to see if PF different
2. Try longer OAL and effect on consistency, and make sure works in all firearms
3. Try CCI primers and see if that changes consistency and PF.

Thanks for the suggestions!

[Farmer]

If you’re trying to load minor power your powder choice is too slow. If your bullet was heavier or you increased the charge it would more than likely settle down. I’m guessing that the factory Syntec loads are possibly loaded with something similar to Sport Pistol. As an example Sport Pistol is #15 on the burn chart while CFE Is #45. Your just not getting an efficient burn. 

[Joe4d]

You will get a bit better accuracy by being closer to the lands,,, Probably not enough to matter.
Big SD's like that are usually caused by under or over pressure loads.. So inconsistent burn. Doubt its the primers, they either go bang or they dont. OAL is usually determined by function, mag length, feeding etc. Seems short , but IME long ago Walthers had short throats.

Looking at  a burn rate chart I see your powder is up there in open major territory. Too slow for the PF you are trying.  Get up to about 10% of whatever book max is, looks like you are at barely start load levels. That or pick a much faster powder.

[PaleoMan]

5 hours ago, Farmer said:

If you’re trying to load minor power your powder choice is too slow. If your bullet was heavier or you increased the charge it would more than likely settle down. I’m guessing that the factory Syntec loads are possibly loaded with something similar to Sport Pistol. As an example Sport Pistol is #15 on the burn chart while CFE Is #45. Your just not getting an efficient burn. 

Thanks, can you point me to the burn chart? It would be a good reference. I've got a ton of the 125 gr Precision Bullets, so I need to use that for a while.  I used CFE Pistol Powder, because, at one point in time, I couldn't get Pistol Powder, which was what I was starting to use.  I've got quite a bit of it right now.

 

[PaleoMan]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

You will get a bit better accuracy by being closer to the lands,,, Probably not enough to matter.
Big SD's like that are usually caused by under or over pressure loads.. So inconsistent burn. Doubt its the primers, they either go bang or they dont. OAL is usually determined by function, mag length, feeding etc. Seems short , but IME long ago Walthers had short throats.

Looking at  a burn rate chart I see your powder is up there in open major territory. Too slow for the PF you are trying.  Get up to about 10% of whatever book max is, looks like you are at barely start load levels. That or pick a much faster powder.

RE Primers: I've never had any issues with them not working.

 

RE: OAL, I vaguely recall having some problems in the past with longer OALs, I think with the Hellcat, but will look through my notes and see what OALs I've had in the past and see if I can lengthen.

 

RE: Powder. I'll look at the CFE Pistol Powder data sheet and report what it says and what I'm using. I didn't think I was down near start levels at all. Will confirm.

 

So a slower powder will give higher velocity and a faster powder will give lower PF? I didn't know that. I'm currently at 130-132 PF with the load I have.

 

Thanks for the suggestions folks! I'll get more info and report back.

[zzt]

Precision makes nice coated bullets.  So, I don't think it is them.  I have tried to make one 9mm minor round that was perfect in both the PCC and pistol.  Hasn't worked out.

 

Try this.  Take ten sized and deprimed cases.  Seat a bullet at 1.150" OAL.  Drop it into the chamber.   If the bullet rests on the lands, decrease the OAL until it does not.  That will be the max OAL you can use for that bullet in that gun.  Load the other 9 cases to the same OAL.  Load them in a mag and cycle them trough the PCC.  Make sure you slingshot the charging handle so you get the maximum force going forward.  Measure the OAL when finished to see if there is any setback.  If no, you are good to go.

 

If yes, experiment with shorter OALs.  Magic marker your feed ramp if there is one.  If not, mark the chamfer around the chamber and the rear of the barrel.  You want to see where the bullet nose is striking.  Adjust OAL until the bullet feeds directly into the chamber.  If you have a feed ramp, the bullet should strike halfway up.

 

I'm willing to bet that you get occasional setback with your short OAL.  Setback increases the pressure and the resultant velocity.  That is going to raise your SDs.  I seat and crimp in separate operations using the Lee FCD crimp die.  I now have zero setback issues.

 

CFE burns at the same rate as AutoComp.  It is the fastest of the Open major powders.  Try selling it to an Open shooter.  Powders like Sport Pistol, N320 or Competition are muck better suited to minor loads.  You keep the pressure up for 124/5gr 132 PF loads and get a much cleaner, more consistent burn.  Any of these powders will reduce your SDs.

Edited January 29 by zzt

[Farmer]

3 hours ago, PaleoMan said:

Thanks, can you point me to the burn chart? It would be a good reference. I've got a ton of the 125 gr Precision Bullets, so I need to use that for a while.  I used CFE Pistol Powder, because, at one point in time, I couldn't get Pistol Powder, which was what I was starting to use.  I've got quite a bit of it right now.

 

Use as a reference, there’s many charts and some place  powders in different slots. 
https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/updatedburnrateschart-1.pdf

[HesedTech]

4 hours ago, PaleoMan said:

So a slower powder will give higher velocity and a faster powder will give lower PF?

No that's not how it works. Slower powders are often less dense and require more volume and weight to attain the same velocity. Example: "fast powder" may use 3.0 grains while a "slower" powder needs 3.6 to achieve the same velocity.

 

Now throw in barrel length and bullet weight to your mix. A slow powder may not have a long enough barrel to achieve the acceleration needed to for the desired velocity. A heavier bullet may cause the load to exceed pressure limits for a load which works with a lighter bullet.

 

If you were shooting an open gun with a comp a slower powder produces more gas at the barrel end allowing the comp to be more effective. 

 

What's the point? You pick your reloading formulas based on what is desired for the shooting. This is the joy of reloading.

 

If you want to achieve a 130 PF it can be done with both "slow" and "fast" powders. It all depends on the combination of bullet, gun and what you want to see and feel when you send it.

 

 

[PaleoMan]

4 hours ago, PaleoMan said:

Thanks, can you point me to the burn chart? It would be a good reference. I've got a ton of the 125 gr Precision Bullets, so I need to use that for a while.  I used CFE Pistol Powder, because, at one point in time, I couldn't get Pistol Powder, which was what I was starting to use.  I've got quite a bit of it right now.

 

Correction Alliant Power Pistol.

[PaleoMan]

1 hour ago, Farmer said:

Use as a reference, there’s many charts and some place  powders in different slots. 
https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/updatedburnrateschart-1.pdf

Thanks!

[Dr Mitch]

Weigh the projectiles and see what the spread is on weight.  Weight variance will change velocity/power factor.

[PaleoMan]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

Precision makes nice coated bullets.  So, I don't think it is them.  I have tried to make one 9mm minor round that was perfect in both the PCC and pistol.  Hasn't worked out.

 

Try this.  Take ten sized and deprimed cases.  Seat a bullet at 1.150" OAL.  Drop it into the chamber.   If the bullet rests on the lands, decrease the OAL until it does not.  That will be the max OAL you can use for that bullet in that gun.  Load the other 9 cases to the same OAL.  Load them in a mag and cycle them trough the PCC.  Make sure you slingshot the charging handle so you get the maximum force going forward.  Measure the OAL when finished to see if there is any setback.  If no, you are good to go.

 

If yes, experiment with shorter OALs.  Magic marker your feed ramp if there is one.  If not, mark the chamfer around the chamber and the rear of the barrel.  You want to see where the bullet nose is striking.  Adjust OAL until the bullet feeds directly into the chamber.  If you have a feed ramp, the bullet should strike halfway up.

 

I'm willing to bet that you get occasional setback with your short OAL.  Setback increases the pressure and the resultant velocity.  That is going to raise your SDs.  I seat and crimp in separate operations using the Lee FCD crimp die.  I now have zero setback issues.

 

CFE burns at the same rate as AutoComp.  It is the fastest of the Open major powders.  Try selling it to an Open shooter.  Powders like Sport Pistol, N320 or Competition are muck better suited to minor loads.  You keep the pressure up for 124/5gr 132 PF loads and get a much cleaner, more consistent burn.  Any of these powders will reduce your SDs.

Thanks! Lots for me to chew on...

 

I dug through my notes and found that I was using 0.130-0.135" OAL and found that they were not chambering with my Hellcat (3" barrel). I found that Precision Bullets, for their RN 9mm suggested 0.115", which is why I've moved to a shorter OAL, and it was chambering fine with both Walther and Hellcat.

 

I found load data in my notes from Hodgdon for CFE pistol powder back in 2016. For LRN, it had said COL 1.10", start at 4.9 (1124 fps) and max 5.4 (1209 fps).  Later, in 2022 I found Hodgdon data saying that for LCN with OAL 1.125" using start 4.4 gr (1041 fps) and max 5.0gn (1156).

 

So I think I was using that range, 4.4-5.0, but COL from what Precision Bullets had suggested.

 

Here are my current goals...

 

• Hellcat (3") - practice for defensive shooting.
• Walther Q5 SF (5") - IDPA matches PF >= 125, I may at some point use it for USPSA (minor).
• JP-5 PCC (16") - Steel Challenge initially, wanting a soft recoil. Later may give it a try in IDPA/USPSA.
• Ideally, have one load and OAL (so I don't have to keep adjusting dies), for all the above.
• S&W 1911 (5" .45ACP) - rarely use, so pinkling, and maybe in the far future, will try USPSA (could do major with 230 gr Precision Bullets that I have).

 

I've got over 5K of 9mm 125 gr Precision Bullets left, probably 10 lbs of CFE Pistol powder, so I'd like to use what I have, if possible. Could, use a different powder for 1+ of the firearms above.

 

Suggestions? Considerations?

 

 

[Dr Mitch]

I use Titegroup for the tight groups, extremely low standard deviation, and value.

[Joe4d]

6 hours ago, PaleoMan said:

RE Primers: I've never had any issues with them not working.

 

RE: OAL, I vaguely recall having some problems in the past with longer OALs, I think with the Hellcat, but will look through my notes and see what OALs I've had in the past and see if I can lengthen.

 

RE: Powder. I'll look at the CFE Pistol Powder data sheet and report what it says and what I'm using. I didn't think I was down near start levels at all. Will confirm.

 

So a slower powder will give higher velocity and a faster powder will give lower PF? I didn't know that. I'm currently at 130-132 PF with the load I have.

 

Thanks for the suggestions folks! I'll get more info and report back.

there are way more variables..  
Go to a manual and pick out loads with powders around AA2, Cleanshot, Tightgroup, Sport Pistol, 231,, You will probably be alot happier with the results.

 

[PaleoMan]

1 hour ago, Dr Mitch said:

Weigh the projectiles and see what the spread is on weight.  Weight variance will change velocity/power factor.

I measured 20 bullets. The average is 126.6 grain with std dev 0.171 grain.

 

 

[PaleoMan]

2 hours ago, zzt said:

Precision makes nice coated bullets.  So, I don't think it is them.  I have tried to make one 9mm minor round that was perfect in both the PCC and pistol.  Hasn't worked out.

 

Try this.  Take ten sized and deprimed cases.  Seat a bullet at 1.150" OAL.  Drop it into the chamber.   If the bullet rests on the lands, decrease the OAL until it does not.  That will be the max OAL you can use for that bullet in that gun.  Load the other 9 cases to the same OAL.  Load them in a mag and cycle them trough the PCC.  Make sure you slingshot the charging handle so you get the maximum force going forward.  Measure the OAL when finished to see if there is any setback.  If no, you are good to go.

 

If yes, experiment with shorter OALs.  Magic marker your feed ramp if there is one.  If not, mark the chamfer around the chamber and the rear of the barrel.  You want to see where the bullet nose is striking.  Adjust OAL until the bullet feeds directly into the chamber.  If you have a feed ramp, the bullet should strike halfway up.

 

I'm willing to bet that you get occasional setback with your short OAL.  Setback increases the pressure and the resultant velocity.  That is going to raise your SDs.  I seat and crimp in separate operations using the Lee FCD crimp die.  I now have zero setback issues.

 

CFE burns at the same rate as AutoComp.  It is the fastest of the Open major powders.  Try selling it to an Open shooter.  Powders like Sport Pistol, N320 or Competition are muck better suited to minor loads.  You keep the pressure up for 124/5gr 132 PF loads and get a much cleaner, more consistent burn.  Any of these powders will reduce your SDs.

Thanks for the information!

 

For the OAL, will I know it is hitting the lands, by the round not fully seating in the chamber?

 

I'm wondering if I should leave the setting I have, and use this for the Hellcat, which I just use for practicing defensive shooting.

 

Then, get another set of 9mm dies, swap them into the head that I have for 45 ACP dies, use a longer OAL, and a faster powder and try to develop something that works for the PCC (and maybe the Walther, where I see high SDs as well).

 

Thoughts?

 

[Farmer]

A little tip on seating depth. Some guns shoot better with a little extra jump. I usually start with a seating depth of .015” from the lands and test from there. In other words seat the bullet .015” deeper from where it just plunks and spins. Some of them shoot more accurately at .025 or greater. You’ll just have to see what works best in your guns. My Hellcat and XDM prefer around .020 with most bullets.  Although my XDM 10mm has a long throat and is impossible to even get close and it shoots just fine. 

Edited January 29 by Farmer

[zzt]

53 minutes ago, PaleoMan said:

For the OAL, will I know it is hitting the lands, by the round not fully seating in the chamber?

 

If you cannot spin the round in the chamber with your fingers, it is touching the lands.  Alternately, you can plunk one of your shorter OAL rounds in to see where the case end rests.  The do the same with longer OALs and see where they land.

[PaleoMan]

1 hour ago, Farmer said:

A little tip on seating depth. Some guns shoot better with a little extra jump. I usually start with a seating depth of .015” from the lands and test from there. In other words seat the bullet .015” deeper from where it just plunks and spins. Some of them shoot more accurately at .025 or greater. You’ll just have to see what works best in your guns. My Hellcat and XDM prefer around .020 with most bullets.  Although my XDM 10mm has a long throat and is impossible to even get close and it shoots just fine. 

 

1 hour ago, zzt said:

 

If you cannot spin the round in the chamber with your fingers, it is touching the lands.  Alternately, you can plunk one of your shorter OAL rounds in to see where the case end rests.  The do the same with longer OALs and see where they land.

Thanks Farmer & zzt!

 

[Joedirt199]

Are you using mixed or sorted by headstamp brass? Nevermind I see you are using Sig brass in batches.

Edited January 30 by Joedirt199

[PaleoMan]

Yes, I sort all my cleaned brass by brand and then do runs with just that brand. Sometimes it is Federal, sometimes Blazer, sometimes Sig,...

 

 

[PaleoMan]

OK, I've got some more (enlightening) information...

 

I have my rounds which I grabbed one that was 1.1155". I happen to have dummy rounds (no primer/powder) with the same Precision Bullets that I was saving as the size I was using in the past.  I happen to have ones with OAL 1.119", 1.130" and 1.133". I also had a sized case.

 

First up, I took the barrel out of the Walther Q5 SF (5"). I could see how far the empty case went into the barrel. All of the rounds that I had plunked into the barrel and would spin.

 

Second, I took the upper off of the PCC, removed the bolt and put the empty case in. I sticks out a bit (I can't get calipers in there to measure), but turns easily (expected). I tried each round and they each seemed to go in the same amount, and with pliers I could move them with what seemed like ease, EXCEPT for the 1.133" round, it seemed to be sticking, so I suspect it is hitting the lands.

 

Third, I took the barrel out of the Hellcat (3"). the empty case was flush with the end of the barrel and turned wasy (expected). However, NONE of the other rounds were flush (not even the 1.1145" one I found from my latest batch). They all seemed to stick some as well, so on the lands. The bottom of the case appears to be past the barrel end, by 0.022" with the shortest round I had.

 

Conclusions and questions...

I could clearly use a longer OAL for the PCC and Walther.

 

Two questions on OAL... Should I just use 1.130" (works in both), or make dummy rounds at 1.131" and 1.132" to see if PCC will accept? Should I reduce the OAL as a margin of error, and if so, how much (1.13" -> 1.125? 1.127?)?

 

I was thinking, for now, I could work up a load with the CFE Pistol Powder I have, based on the longer OAL and see how it goes. Later, I can try to get a faster powder.

 

Question on load... I used to just increase the load until I was over 125 PF (for IDPA/USPSA), like 128-132 PF. Should I explore higher PF to see if spread and std. dev. improve more?

 

For the Hellcat, that was the pistol I was having problems with the 1.130" OAL and dropped to 1.115". I'll chrono what I have now, but it sounds like I need to bring the OAL down even more and then build up a load.

 

Question on Hellcat... Will I have issues with CFE Pistol powder in an even shorter OAL - implying that I MUST go to a faster powder?

 

The proposed plan is:

• Try longer OAL for the Walther and PPC
• Use what I have for practice in the Walther and PCC
• Migrate to a faster powder
• Use my second Dillon head that has .45 ACP dies, and replace with 9mm dies and set short OAL for the Hellcat.

Any other thoughts/suggestions?

 

Thanks for the observations and suggestions everyone!

[zzt]

If the PCC and Walther are happy with the OAL you were using, throat the Hellcat barrel so it takes the same.