Why There is no Priming Sensor for Dillon RL1100/Super 1050 Mark 7 Autodrive

[hlsccsfa]

I have a RL1100 that runs smoothly and I am planning to upgrade it with a MK 7 auto drive in the near future. I checked on Mark 7 website and found out that there is no priming sensor for the 1100/1050 auto drive. It is a huge bummer. It is available for the auto drive for Mark 7's own 10-station presses. Just wondering why... maybe the design of 1100/1050 makes it impossible to have such a senor?

[HesedTech]

15 hours ago, hlsccsfa said:

maybe the design of 1100/1050 makes it impossible to have such a senor?

Send an email to Mark 7 with the question. 

[HOGRIDER]

16 hours ago, hlsccsfa said:

I have a RL1100 that runs smoothly and I am planning to upgrade it with a MK 7 auto drive in the near future. I checked on Mark 7 website and found out that there is no priming sensor for the 1100/1050 auto drive. It is a huge bummer. It is available for the auto drive for Mark 7's own 10-station presses. Just wondering why... maybe the design of 1100/1050 makes it impossible to have such a senor?

Moved from an RL1100 to the MK7 Apex 10; and in addition to the 10 station advantages, was the offer of using Primer Orientation Sensor once I automate.

 

Like you suspected, the MK7 was designed to allow the simple addition of the POS with automation.  Sadly, the RL1100 has no design feature that I'm aware of that would activate some sort of alarm to alert the manual operator; or stop automation.  Definitely not a fault of Mark 7!

 

And since, IMO, primer issues/failures are the number one complaint with all the major progressive presses, having a type of primer orientation sensor right after the priming station would be such a great option!  

 

 

 

[shred]

There's no hole underneath the 1050 shellplate you could put a sensor into where it could see or poke the primer pocket.  IDK about the 1100.

 

Dillon probably didn't care way back when they designed the 1050 as primer errors don't make grenade rounds if a case doesn't get primed or gets a flipped primer.

 

I'd blame the primer loader for flipping primers before blaming the press for not doing anything about them.  Not feeding them is probably on the press most of the time.

 

[hlsccsfa]

1 hour ago, shred said:

There's no hole underneath the 1050 shellplate you could put a sensor into where it could see or poke the primer pocket.  IDK about the 1100.

 

Dillon probably didn't care way back when they designed the 1050 as primer errors don't make grenade rounds if a case doesn't get primed or gets a flipped primer.

 

I'd blame the primer loader for flipping primers before blaming the press for not doing anything about them.  Not feeding them is probably on the press most of the time.

 

1100 was not that different from 1050. I don't plan to use a primer loader so flipped primer won't be an issue to me. The only issue with my 1100 is that there is a small chance (less than 1 in 100) that the primer slide doesn't pick up a primer. Unlike 650/750 you can clearly feel when there is no primer, there is no way to detect it by the feel of the handle on 1050/1100 when seating the primer, except by staring at the primer slide 100% of the time...

[HOGRIDER]

1 hour ago, shred said:

There's no hole underneath the 1050 shellplate you could put a sensor into where it could see or poke the primer pocket.  IDK about the 1100.

 

 

27 minutes ago, hlsccsfa said:

1100 was not that different from 1050. I don't plan to use a primer loader so flipped primer won't be an issue to me. The only issue with my 1100 is that there is a small chance (less than 1 in 100) that the primer slide doesn't pick up a primer. Unlike 650/750 you can clearly feel when there is no primer, there is no way to detect it by the feel of the handle on 1050/1100 when seating the primer, except by staring at the primer slide 100% of the time...

There was that option to remote the primer pocket on the RL1100............IDK about the 1050......

 

[shred]

That is interesting.  I took a quick look at a 1050 with no shellplate on it and maybe you could look up at an angle through the indexing slot and see a primer.  I use the 'powder-pours-out-of-the-case' indication

 

Long time ago I was idly thinking of using an optical mouse sensor (they are tiny XY movement-detector cameras) to detect the primer rod movement, but it's not that much of an annoyance to me.

 

 

[hlsccsfa]

1 hour ago, HOGRIDER said:

 

There was that option to remote the primer pocket on the RL1100............IDK about the 1050......

 

that's a good idea, will give it a try

[hlsccsfa]

4 minutes ago, shred said:

Long time ago I was idly thinking of using an optical mouse sensor (they are tiny XY movement-detector cameras) to detect the primer rod movement

 

 

I was literally thinking about the same thing yesterday, lol

[HOGRIDER]

2 hours ago, shred said:

Long time ago I was idly thinking of using an optical mouse sensor (they are tiny XY movement-detector cameras) to detect the primer rod movement, but it's not that much of an annoyance to me.

I posed the question of offering an alarm activated Primer Orientation Sensor for manual operation loaders using the M7 Apex 10.  A very seasoned commercial(?) operator suggested adding a Pattern Match Camera that would completely satisfy the need.

 

Any electronics veterans that could elaborate on this; and if it's even a reasonable cost consideration?

 

Sounds expensive to me!

 

 

[shred]

If there was a viewport you could stick a camera into, it's doable.  Places like Keyence sell standalone pattern match cameras, probably for several $K apiece (prices are on-request with them, so you know it's not a consumer device).  Plug it in, point it at a good primer and hit a button, done (the back end alarm/machine stop sold separately)

 

SWAG here but A DIY alarm setup might be doable for a hundred or so these days with OpenCV & a spare PC or dev board and endoscope camera.

[ddc]

21 hours ago, shred said:

  I use the 'powder-pours-out-of-the-case' indication

 

That's the one I use also. The nice thing about it is that it is free and 100% reliable. It works every time.

[ezra650]

I have a design idea to make a Probe primer sensor that uses a sprong loaded brass rod that has a beveled tip. When depressed the rod would trigger a prox sensor mounted on the back of the machine. When the Probe rod springs up into the primer pocket (or an empty station) the prox would no longer be triggered and would e stop the mk7 autodrive. 

 

The sensor would use the remote e stop port on the drive. 

 

Mounting would be a custom mount 3d printed. Really no reason to add cost of an aluminum mount. 

 

The rod goes thru the drain hole on the platform. 1050 users would have to drill this hole in the press. On the 1100 it is already there. The mount would be secured to the square U shaped frame behind the press. 

 

I spent a few hours designing it and taking measurements of a spare 1100 I have. Even ordered the brass rods from Mcmaster. The one concession is that the index roller and index lever arm would require ultra low profile bolts so the rod could mount into the press drain hole. A special bushing (likely brass) would be need to center the Probe rod in the press platform. 3d print may also work for that part. 

 

Unfortunately I have just been too busy with my day job, business, and family to prototype further. 

 

It was mostly a fun project for me to toy with and see if it works. Perhaps sell units later but I don't forsee a large market for the sensor. 

 

Maybe I'll pick this idea up again one day. Posting here in case anyone would like to run with the idea more.

[Nolan]

How string a sprong would you use?

 

Nolan

[slavex]

a brass rod would just wear out over time due to the shellplate contacting it during rotation. MK7 alleviates that by having a probe retractor that sits at the outside edge of the shellplate and is designed to take the abuse of the rotating shellplate and push the probe down as the shellplate moves. You'd need to do that, or just regularly replace the brass probe. 

A camera or laser sensor would probably be the way to go. 

[esquared]

B team engineering had a device on his instagram page that probes for a primer over the priming station. Now if one of the autodrive makers would buy it and integrate it into their software we are good to go.

[HOGRIDER]

1 hour ago, esquared said:

B team engineering had a device on his instagram page that probes for a primer over the priming station. Now if one of the autodrive makers would buy it and integrate it into their software we are good to go.

IMO, Mark 7 could easily integrate an aftermarket Primer Orientation Sensor into their software for a Dillon loader as they now have that exact integration with their own POS on the Apex10/Evolutions presses.........

 

[esquared]

On 12/12/2023 at 8:55 PM, HOGRIDER said:

IMO, Mark 7 could easily integrate an aftermarket Primer Orientation Sensor into their software for a Dillon loader as they now have that exact integration with their own POS on the Apex10/Evolutions presses.........

 

My question would be why would they? I don't believe Mark 7 is here to compete with Dillon I believe they are here to take them out, just my belief after being in business for many years. If they dropped their Revoilution and Evolution press prices it is game over. If Genesys is everything they say it is and at that price it could be a game changer. Lower the price and there goes the market. With limited stations on the Dillon that is also a problem

[shred]

Yeah, what's in it for them to enable 3rd-party sensors that might not work properly and support generate calls to them?  It's not difficult electrically to use the switch inputs on the Mk 7, but the error would be e-stop or something versus 'primer not detected'.

 

 

 

 

[HOGRIDER]

1 hour ago, shred said:

Yeah, what's in it for them to enable 3rd-party sensors that might not work properly and support generate calls to them?  It's not difficult electrically to use the switch inputs on the Mk 7, but the error would be e-stop or something versus 'primer not detected'.

 

 

 

 

While I understand your reasoning; and dealing with "generate calls" supporting a different manufacturer's press, I do see that Mark7 offers a pretty large suite of sensors available for their Autodrive for Dillon machines!

 

I also remember the "hole" in the RL1100 where users were sticking an endoscope to verify that there was at least a primer present:

 

IMO, if there were enough requests offered to M7, and they could justify a market for; they may be able to design a sensor/camera to at least detect a primer present..........

 

Just thinking out loud....

 

[shred]

Yeah, they could do one and sell it, but there's nothing in it for enabling a 3rd party accessory.  

 

Cost of an off-the-shelf AI camera was quoted by Keyence at "$600-$4500 depending on the model and complexity of setup".  That seems likely to have a low take-rate given the rate of missing or upside down primers I run into.

 

A primer-rod-movement sensor would be a lot cheaper and cover the 'no primer dispensed' case.

 

 

[HOGRIDER]

IMO, unlike Mark 7, Dillon never designed the "commercial grade" machines to have an option to detect/verify correct primer orientation.

 

With primer issues being the #1 complaint for those doing singe pass loading, I'm just surprised that most manufacturers don't have some sort of primer sensing options for the upper level progressives.

 

Maybe doing multiple pass loading helps to sell more equipment..........

 

1 hour ago, shred said:

A primer rod movement sensor would be a lot cheaper and cover the 'no primer dispensed' case.

Sounds like a doable option!

[shred]

I do single-pass loading on a 1050/Mk7.  Priming issues are way down my list on it.  YMMV.

[HOGRIDER]

1 hour ago, shred said:

I do single-pass loading on a 1050/Mk7.  Priming issues are way down my list on it.  YMMV.

And what I know of your experience level and skill set, I don't think your 1050/Mk7 doing single-pass loading is out of the box/stock.......