Twilk73 Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 How do match bumps work? Id imagine it’s not random. Is there a certain number of people you have to beat to rank up or is algorithm un-known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddc Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Twilk73 said: How do match bumps work? Id imagine it’s not random. Is there a certain number of people you have to beat to rank up or is algorithm un-known. Somebody will come along and say "it's in the rulebook". And it is... sort of... IDPA for some reason thinks it's a good idea to have the rules divided up between "the rulebook" and "the match administration rules". I'd like to know if there is anybody who thinks this is a good idea. The match bump rules are in the "match administration rules". Good luck. Edit to add: Actually there are rules in three different documents. I forgot about the "equipment appendix". Edited June 30, 2023 by ddc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, ddc said: Somebody will come along and say "it's in the rulebook". And it is... sort of... IDPA for some reason thinks it's a good idea to have the rules divided up between "the rulebook" and "the match administration rules". I'd like to know if there is anybody who thinks this is a good idea. The match bump rules are in the "match administration rules". Good luck. Edit to add: Actually there are rules in three different documents. I forgot about the "equipment appendix". Really there are like 4 rule books one is secret. There is the rule book, the equipment book, the match admin book, and then at least here in this area the area coordinator has a list of rulings he's made based on the rules but you'll only have this if you're a RO/MD that has been given access to it. The average member wont see these rules. @Twilk73 I believe the current match bump requirement is to beat 5 shooters that are your classification or better. So say you finish 5th EX at a major match. If you still managed to beat 20 EX's and MA's combined you'll get bumped to MA. If you're shooting a division like CO this is pretty common. 1st beat 5 2nd beat 10 3rd beat 15 And so on, there is no limit as to how many can be bumped as long as you beat enough shooters. Edited June 30, 2023 by Racinready300ex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 M-4.1 At Tier Two and higher matches, awards and match bumps will be given based on number of contestants per class and division (including DQs and DNFs, but not including no -shows) and go to the top one-fifth of those competitors. Tier two and higher matches will provide a minimum of one award for each 5 entrants, rounding up. One award for 1 -5 entrants, two awards for 6-10 entrants, etc. M-4.2 Tier two and higher matches must give trophies or plaques for the Division Champions. The remaining awards may be trophies, medals or medallions, etc. M-4.2.1 Example: 1-5 shooters in ESP/MM = 1st award. M-4.2.2 6-10 shooters in ESP/MM = 1st and 2nd awards. M-4.2.3 11-15 shooters in ESP/MM = 1st, 2nd and 3rd awards. M-4.2.4 16-20 shooters in ESP/MM = 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th awards, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddc Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 10 hours ago, Racinready300ex said: Really there are like 4 rule books one is secret. There is the rule book, the equipment book, the match admin book, and then at least here in this area the area coordinator has a list of rulings he's made based on the rules but you'll only have this if you're a RO/MD that has been given access to it. The average member wont see these rules. It might even be worse than that. Seeing as how there are multiple AC's there could also be multiple "secret rule books" unless they are making a concerted effort to keep all the AC's on the same page... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 16 hours ago, ddc said: It might even be worse than that. Seeing as how there are multiple AC's there could also be multiple "secret rule books" unless they are making a concerted effort to keep all the AC's on the same page... That's vary likely. I know they're are holsters that we can't use here that guys in other areas are telling me they can use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck_Duckalo Posted September 27, 2023 Share Posted September 27, 2023 I looked this up and asked my AC. To get a bump, you must beat 5 in your class or better. However, if you come in second place, you need to beat 10, then 15, then 20 and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddc Posted September 27, 2023 Share Posted September 27, 2023 3 minutes ago, Duck_Duckalo said: I looked this up and asked my AC. To get a bump, you must beat 5 in your class or better. However, if you come in second place, you need to beat 10, then 15, then 20 and so on. Just like @waktasz has already explained; in fact he listed out the exact rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck_Duckalo Posted September 27, 2023 Share Posted September 27, 2023 17 hours ago, ddc said: Just like @waktasz has already explained; in fact he listed out the exact rule. Yeah it's just been burning me. Came just short of two match bumps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddc Posted September 27, 2023 Share Posted September 27, 2023 2 hours ago, Duck_Duckalo said: Yeah it's just been burning me. Came just short of two match bumps. I'm not sure that's anything to worry about. The IDPA match bump system is flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted September 28, 2023 Share Posted September 28, 2023 If you shoot enough matches it will happen. All the people ahead of you will get bumped until you become the man in that division, then you get to do it all over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddc Posted September 28, 2023 Share Posted September 28, 2023 1 hour ago, waktasz said: If you shoot enough matches it will happen. All the people ahead of you will get bumped until you become the man in that division, then you get to do it all over again. and eventually we will all be IDPA "Masters" even if in USPSA we will still have a letter after our name... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted September 28, 2023 Share Posted September 28, 2023 7 hours ago, ddc said: and eventually we will all be IDPA "Masters" even if in USPSA we will still have a letter after our name... If you assume a static population of the people who attend majors. My favorite concept of a handicap system would be to take the USPSA system and revise percentages so you have closer to an even spread in d-c-b-a-m-gm and to add a kicker downward so that classifications were not stuck on your best effort from 20 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted September 28, 2023 Share Posted September 28, 2023 The other day I looked back at the oldest IDPA majors in the area I could find on PS that are still around today. Going back to like 2014 I think it was. There were 4 Masters at the Liberty match which is a level 3 in this area. And really only a couple were competitive and winning consistently. This past weekend they held the Liberty match again and had everyone shown up in the bad weather there would of been 62 MA's and 1 DM (only 56 showed up in the rain) In reality there were only about 4 Masters this year too, as the gap from 1st to 2nd in CO was about 7 seconds. 1st place didn't shoot in the rain like everyone else. 2nd to 4th was about 7 more seconds. Then there was a 24 second gap from 4th to 5th and almost 100 seconds from 1st to last master in CO. 11th, 13th and 15th CO will be bumped to Master. 15th was almost 80 seconds back on a 13 stage match. He's got to shave 6 seconds a stage before he's competitive as a Master. That's a mountain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted September 28, 2023 Share Posted September 28, 2023 Wow that's brutal. There trophy allotment and the match bump rules should be separated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted September 28, 2023 Share Posted September 28, 2023 2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said: The other day I looked back at the oldest IDPA majors in the area I could find on PS that are still around today. Going back to like 2014 I think it was. There were 4 Masters at the Liberty match which is a level 3 in this area. And really only a couple were competitive and winning consistently. This past weekend they held the Liberty match again and had everyone shown up in the bad weather there would of been 62 MA's and 1 DM (only 56 showed up in the rain) In reality there were only about 4 Masters this year too, as the gap from 1st to 2nd in CO was about 7 seconds. 1st place didn't shoot in the rain like everyone else. 2nd to 4th was about 7 more seconds. Then there was a 24 second gap from 4th to 5th and almost 100 seconds from 1st to last master in CO. 11th, 13th and 15th CO will be bumped to Master. 15th was almost 80 seconds back on a 13 stage match. He's got to shave 6 seconds a stage before he's competitive as a Master. That's a mountain. Isnt IDPA time plus ? with a not down zero a full second or more penalty ? Maybe accuracy is killing him, vs speed. Honestly I dont think IDPA has ever had a super class system.. I made ESP master at the 90 round classifier when I was still a C in USPSA.. Not long after I won a major as ESP expert.. Dont think I shot a fair IDPA match after that though.. So no idea how I woulda panned out, that was humm 20 years ago... Humm maybe I should take up the sport and just not worry about the rules and see how it goes now with more accuracy required. Kinda what I like about ICORE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck_Duckalo Posted September 28, 2023 Share Posted September 28, 2023 22 minutes ago, Joe4d said: Isnt IDPA time plus ? with a not down zero a full second or more penalty ? Maybe accuracy is killing him, vs speed. Honestly I dont think IDPA has ever had a super class system.. I made ESP master at the 90 round classifier when I was still a C in USPSA.. Not long after I won a major as ESP expert.. Dont think I shot a fair IDPA match after that though.. So no idea how I woulda panned out, that was humm 20 years ago... Humm maybe I should take up the sport and just not worry about the rules and see how it goes now with more accuracy required. Kinda what I like about ICORE. So in a classifier you could make master. I went to a Tim Herron class recently, and there were some new IDPA shooters that qualified as Sharp Shooters, which is above my rank. However when we first ran the course and compared times, either they had a bad run or I had a great run. IDPA scoring is raw time plus. Hits on a non threat +5 seconds, outside the zero is +1, +3, or +5 for a miss, procedural penalties of +3 such as stepping over fault lines and shooting, dropping a mag with ammo still in it, shooting targets out of order. Having shot a USPSA course and IDPA, the differences in the rules are clear. USPSA is go shoot and stay in the box, IDPA is shoot within these rule sets. But the rules are very different than when you last shot a match. I shoot IDPA as it's what is more available around me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck_Duckalo Posted September 28, 2023 Share Posted September 28, 2023 15 hours ago, waktasz said: If you shoot enough matches it will happen. All the people ahead of you will get bumped until you become the man in that division, then you get to do it all over again. I know it will. It's all fun but I do get competitive. The downside is the equity bump. If you are a novice in carry optics, and if you get a bump higher than Marksman, you're carry optics is then promoted to the level lower than your recent bump. So I can't go through all the divisions and work my way up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted September 28, 2023 Share Posted September 28, 2023 44 minutes ago, Joe4d said: Isnt IDPA time plus ? with a not down zero a full second or more penalty ? Maybe accuracy is killing him, vs speed. Honestly I dont think IDPA has ever had a super class system.. I made ESP master at the 90 round classifier when I was still a C in USPSA.. Not long after I won a major as ESP expert.. Dont think I shot a fair IDPA match after that though.. So no idea how I woulda panned out, that was humm 20 years ago... Humm maybe I should take up the sport and just not worry about the rules and see how it goes now with more accuracy required. Kinda what I like about ICORE. I didn't dig into the scores that deep, but it is possible the shooter just needs to maintain their speed and get significantly more accurate. Or more likely some combination of the two. Either way, there is a massive skill gap with in the Master classification and it's only getting worse. I know a couple people that have made M in under a year, lots of C class Masters one D class master. I also know GM's that are Master. The basics of the rules really aren't that hard to figure out. Trouble comes more when you start trying to game the reload rules to improve your time. If you just shoot basically clean you'll do well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted September 28, 2023 Share Posted September 28, 2023 29 minutes ago, Duck_Duckalo said: I know it will. It's all fun but I do get competitive. The downside is the equity bump. If you are a novice in carry optics, and if you get a bump higher than Marksman, you're carry optics is then promoted to the level lower than your recent bump. So I can't go through all the divisions and work my way up. wut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted September 28, 2023 Share Posted September 28, 2023 11 minutes ago, waktasz said: wut? He saying he doesn't want to get bumped to SS because then he'll get bumped from NV to MM in all the other divisions. @Duck_Duckalo that's called sandbagging, but it's also common practice within IDPA. Everyone is all about the bumps even if they're super easy to get now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted September 28, 2023 Share Posted September 28, 2023 2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said: I didn't dig into the scores that deep, but it is possible the shooter just needs to maintain their speed and get significantly more accurate. Or more likely some combination of the two. Either way, there is a massive skill gap with in the Master classification and it's only getting worse. I know a couple people that have made M in under a year, lots of C class Masters one D class master. I also know GM's that are Master. The basics of the rules really aren't that hard to figure out. Trouble comes more when you start trying to game the reload rules to improve your time. If you just shoot basically clean you'll do well. not so much the basics,, its the inconsistency and subjective scoring. I do sa they finally put a dang line on the ground, that helped some.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted September 28, 2023 Share Posted September 28, 2023 15 minutes ago, Joe4d said: not so much the basics,, its the inconsistency and subjective scoring. I do sa they finally put a dang line on the ground, that helped some.. The basic's of IDPA, if you understand slice the pie, near to far you've basically got it. Round dumping is legal now, fault lines help. Reloading from slide lock is basically the same, can't leave cover with a empty gun. Yada, yada. The part it gets murky on now is reloading with one in the chamber is allowed, but you can't reload in the open if you're exposed to a unengaged target. But what's considered exposed is where it gets funny. Even if you can't see the target because there is a wall between you and it, unless that wall is cover you're still exposed to it. YMMV because IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddc Posted September 28, 2023 Share Posted September 28, 2023 4 hours ago, Duck_Duckalo said: I know it will. It's all fun but I do get competitive. The downside is the equity bump. If you are a novice in carry optics, and if you get a bump higher than Marksman, you're carry optics is then promoted to the level lower than your recent bump. So I can't go through all the divisions and work my way up. So, for example, you think it would be cool to be good enough to be a Master in ESP but still be classified as a Novice in SSP so you could get all those match bumps from Marksman on up? And then do it all over again with CO? Those would be great accomplishments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted September 28, 2023 Share Posted September 28, 2023 @ddc So many IDPA shooters do this. It never really made sense to me TBH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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