Reloading from the hand

[matteekay]

When reloading, it used to be that a magazine had to be pulled directly from your pouch/pocket and inserted into the gun (you couldn't "stage" it in your off-hand while shooting). Looking over the latest rules, I can't find a penalty that would apply if a shooter does this. Did we do away with that rule (he asks hopefully)?

[Jim Watson]

This came up last week, and there is no longer a specific prohibition against it, which seems strange, so I asked the MD on Saturday.

He said you still may not, based on:

 

3.4.2  The shooter initiates a reload by performing any one of the following actions:

3.4.2.1 Withdrawing a magazine, speed loader or moon clip from a carrier, pocket or waistband.

 

Unsafe firearm handling will result in immediate Disqualification (DQ) from an IDPA match. The following is a non- exclusive list of unsafe behaviors.

2.2.4  A discharge:

2.2.4.5 during Load and Make Ready, Unload and Show Clear, Reload, or Malfunction Clearance.

 

His logic being that if you have a magazine in your hand, you are in the process of reloading and a "discharge" is by definition unsafe.  No matter that it is aimed at a target.

 

 

[matteekay]

So we went from a 3-second penalty to a DQ. Huh. That... seems odd.

[Diver123]

8.6.1.4 Spare ammunition is considered stowed when it is secured in an approved carrier, or a pocket. After the start signal, magazines optionally may be stowed inside the belt. Spare or partial devices are not considered stowed in a shooters hand, armpit, mouth or similar scheme.

 

As for 2.2.4.5 any MD that DQ's a shooter who purposefully aims at a target and shoots it with a mag in hand is a clown. By their definition if I withdraw a mag and drop it then decide to shoot the remaining rounds out of my gun they would DQ me. After all I withdrew a mag which according to them is a starting a reload. That is asinine. It is being applied 100% incorrectly. It should be used for when you are actively attempting a reload and send a round because your finger is on the trigger. The gun is no longer being aimed at a target. Nothing is unsafe about aiming at a target and sending a round after you removed the mag period. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Diver123

[matteekay]

18 minutes ago, Diver123 said:

8.6.1.4 Spare ammunition is considered stowed when it is secured in an approved carrier, or a pocket. After the start signal, magazines optionally may be stowed inside the belt. Spare or partial devices are not considered stowed in a shooters hand, armpit, mouth or similar scheme.

 

Doesn't work for a PE. The only penalty you can give in relation to "stowing" is for dropped loading devices. There's no penalty for shooting with un-stowed magazines.

 

I agree that a DQ is not the answer.

[Racinready300ex]

Did you make the post on Bookface?

 

I looked I can't really see anything. It seems the language about stowing is gone. The only case I could make is it it's something like fire x and reload then fire y. You initiate the reload before firing the shots you've not followed the WSB. This could only really apply on a standards stage where the WSB can dictate the shooting actions and then depend exactly how it's worded.  And I think this is kind of a stretch TBH. 

[Diver123]

mattee 8.6.1.4 is under ammunition carrier rules. Mags can only be stowed in two places. Carriers or in pockets. Unless you don't have carriers at all but im not addressing that. After the start signal they can optionally be stowed inside the belt. They are not considered stowed in your hand, armpit, mouth or similar scheme therefore you are violating 8..6.1.4. and breaking a rule. 5.1.1.2 states if you break a rule Thats a PE if you shoot.  A mag that is dropped also isn't in compliance with the rule but there is a rule that addresses that specifically allowing you to pick it up penalty free before last shot.

[Racinready300ex]

24 minutes ago, Diver123 said:

mattee 8.6.1.4 is under ammunition carrier rules. Mags can only be stowed in two places. Carriers or in pockets. Unless you don't have carriers at all but im not addressing that. After the start signal they can optionally be stowed inside the belt. They are not considered stowed in your hand, armpit, mouth or similar scheme therefore you are violating 8..6.1.4. and breaking a rule. 5.1.1.2 states if you break a rule Thats a PE if you shoot.  A mag that is dropped also isn't in compliance with the rule but there is a rule that addresses that specifically allowing you to pick it up penalty free before last shot.

 

I think the question still comes from when must the magazine be stowed? I don't see a rule that really says I must have my mags stowed when not in the firearm. 

 

Section 8.6 is about legal ammunition carrier rules not really about shooting rules.

 

The old reload rules 3.4.9 specifically said "A shooter may not remove a loading device after the start signal and stage it" That rule is gone now which makes me think staging should now be legal. Why else remove a vary clear rule. 

 

 

[matteekay]

22 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I think the question still comes from 

The old reload rules 3.4.9 specifically said "A shooter may not remove a loading device after the start signal and stage it" That rule is gone now which makes me think staging should now be legal. Why else remove a vary clear rule. 

 

 

 

That's my take, too. Great summary.

[Diver123]

8.6.1 General Ammunition Carrier Rules. 8.6.1.1 Instead of using ammunition carriers, shooters may carry spare loading devices in their pockets or belt. Shooters may mix carry methods but they must be concealed from view at the start signal. 8.6.1.2 Ammunition carriers may be modified to meet IDPA rules. 8.6.1.3 Magnets worn on belts or in concealment garments may not substitute traditional carriers. 8.6.1.4 Spare ammunition is considered stowed when it is secured in an approved carrier, or a pocket. After the start signal, magazines optionally may be stowed inside the belt. Spare or partial devices are not considered stowed in a shooters hand, armpit, mouth or similar scheme.

 

Literally it says after the start signal you can not have mags in your hand because they are not considered stowed! How more obvious can it be. 

 

 

[matteekay]

7 hours ago, Diver123 said:

8.6.1 General Ammunition Carrier Rules. 8.6.1.1 Instead of using ammunition carriers, shooters may carry spare loading devices in their pockets or belt. Shooters may mix carry methods but they must be concealed from view at the start signal. 8.6.1.2 Ammunition carriers may be modified to meet IDPA rules. 8.6.1.3 Magnets worn on belts or in concealment garments may not substitute traditional carriers. 8.6.1.4 Spare ammunition is considered stowed when it is secured in an approved carrier, or a pocket. After the start signal, magazines optionally may be stowed inside the belt. Spare or partial devices are not considered stowed in a shooters hand, armpit, mouth or similar scheme.

 

Literally it says after the start signal you can not have mags in your hand because they are not considered stowed! How more obvious can it be. 

 

 

 

Where is the requirement that all mags must be stowed during a course of fire? Give me a rule number.

[Jim Watson]

Give it a try at a match and let us know what YOUR SO and MD do about it.

Make them cite a rule.  Internet BS does not appear on the scorecard.

 

I once read a cop to say "Many times I romped into the fray with a Commander in one hand and a spare magazine in the other."  (Right before he described how he went back to a revolver.)

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, Jim Watson said:

Give it a try at a match and let us know what YOUR SO and MD do about it.

Make them cite a rule.  Internet BS does not appear on the scorecard.

 

I once read a cop to say "Many times I romped into the fray with a Commander in one hand and a spare magazine in the other."  (Right before he described how he went back to a revolver.)

 

I typically just ask the SO. I've shot matches were I was allowed to do this and ones where I wasn't. Personally I wouldn't just do it without asking unless I really didn't care about my match performance. 

[Thomas H]

My favorite version of this question is simple:

Unloaded start, magazines on the table.

 

On the beep, you pick up a mag, load it into the gun, and shoot the first array.  As you start moving to the second array, you pick up a magazine and hold it in your hand.  You then shoot the second array (with the magazine in your hand), then reload using the magazine in your hand.

 

Given that you aren't starting the stage with magazines stowed, and there is no requirement during the stage to stow any magazine OTHER than if you drop one---is there anything about the described situation that is illegal?

 

Part II:

On a different stage, you shoot the first array and perform a tac reload, keeping the extra magazine (with ammo still in it) in your hand while you shoot the last three targets of the stage.  As you have not dropped it, and have not left it behind, are you penalized for finishing the stage with it in your hand?

 

(In either case, if someone says there is a penalty, could you please point to the rule for said penalty?)

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

6 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

My favorite version of this question is simple:

Unloaded start, magazines on the table.

 

On the beep, you pick up a mag, load it into the gun, and shoot the first array.  As you start moving to the second array, you pick up a magazine and hold it in your hand.  You then shoot the second array (with the magazine in your hand), then reload using the magazine in your hand.

 

Given that you aren't starting the stage with magazines stowed, and there is no requirement during the stage to stow any magazine OTHER than if you drop one---is there anything about the described situation that is illegal?

 

Part II:

On a different stage, you shoot the first array and perform a tac reload, keeping the extra magazine (with ammo still in it) in your hand while you shoot the last three targets of the stage.  As you have not dropped it, and have not left it behind, are you penalized for finishing the stage with it in your hand?

 

(In either case, if someone says there is a penalty, could you please point to the rule for said penalty?)

 

 

 

If you don't leave the position you can just drop the mag back on the table no need to catch it in your hand. 

[Thomas H]

10 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

If you don't leave the position you can just drop the mag back on the table no need to catch it in your hand. 

 Yes, but that isn't the question.    You aren't staying at that position.

 

You've still got rounds in it, enough for the next array, so you head to the next array without reloading--you just bring a mag with you.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Thomas H
added clarification

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 Yes, but that isn't the question.    You aren't staying at that position.

 

You've still got rounds in it, enough for the next array, so you head to the next array without reloading--you just bring a mag with you.

 

 

In the past I've been allowed to leave a position and leave the mag on the table what mags started. That was a gray area that was sometimes allowed sometimes not. I see they cleared that up in this rule book, but I bet it's still allowed sometimes. 

 

[Thomas H]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

In the past I've been allowed to leave a position and leave the mag on the table what mags started. That was a gray area that was sometimes allowed sometimes not. I see they cleared that up in this rule book, but I bet it's still allowed sometimes. 

 

 

Can you show me where that got cleared up in the rule book?  I see the part that says you can drop a mag on the table if you are staying in that position, but I don't think I saw the part that cleared up whether or not you can leave mags behind if you never touched them and are leaving.  What did I miss?

 

(I'll note that I think it is ridiculous to require people to pick up all mags, even if they aren't going to use them.  They were on the table in the first place--shouldn't they automatically be able to be left there if you don't want them?  It is certainly true that in the past, some matches made you pick them all up, and some matches said "they started there, they can stay there.")

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

10 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

Can you show me where that got cleared up in the rule book?  I see the part that says you can drop a mag on the table if you are staying in that position, but I don't think I saw the part that cleared up whether or not you can leave mags behind if you never touched them and are leaving.  What did I miss?

 

(I'll note that I think it is ridiculous to require people to pick up all mags, even if they aren't going to use them.  They were on the table in the first place--shouldn't they automatically be able to be left there if you don't want them?  It is certainly true that in the past, some matches made you pick them all up, and some matches said "they started there, they can stay there.")

 

 

 

I've never been forced to pick up all my mags, I didn't even know that was a thing. Around here the question always came up once you touched it did it need to go with you and be stowed or not. 

 

I would say that the mag did start stowed, it was just stowed off body. So under the old rules I can see where you'd be required to stow the mag once leaving. Under current rules I don't really see anything saying mags must be stowed during a course of fire. There are details what is considered stowed, but that in itself doesn't mean I must stow them. Old or new in my mind the mags were good on the table before I got there then leaving them there should be fine. 

[matteekay]

46 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Under current rules I don't really see anything saying mags must be stowed during a course of fire. There are details what is considered stowed, but that in itself doesn't mean I must stow them. 

 

That's my issue. It's great that they defined "stowed", but now it's only applicable to dropped loading devices as far as I can tell.

[Thomas H]

On 5/18/2023 at 4:26 PM, matteekay said:

 

That's my issue. It's great that they defined "stowed", but now it's only applicable to dropped loading devices as far as I can tell.

 

Exactly.

[matteekay]

This conversation is making the rounds on Facebook again. 

 

It's wild to try to Google an answer only to find a thread that you started a year ago that still doesn't have a clear resolution (IMHO).

[Thomas H]

On 3/6/2024 at 6:47 PM, matteekay said:

This conversation is making the rounds on Facebook again. 

 

It's wild to try to Google an answer only to find a thread that you started a year ago that still doesn't have a clear resolution (IMHO).

 

Yup....because people keep "adding" rules that aren't in the rulebook, or using rules that have been taken OUT of the rulebook, under the assumption that "they meant it THIS way."

 

So we still have all sorts of opinions that don't match what is in the current rulebook, and no one from IDPA HQ will answer an email to clarify.

 

Awesome.

[iboomer]

On 5/17/2023 at 2:53 PM, Diver123 said:

8.6.1.4 Spare ammunition is considered stowed when it is secured in an approved carrier, or a pocket. After the start signal, magazines optionally may be stowed inside the belt. Spare or partial devices are not considered stowed in a shooters hand, armpit, mouth or similar scheme.

 

As for 2.2.4.5 any MD that DQ's a shooter who purposefully aims at a target and shoots it with a mag in hand is a clown. By their definition if I withdraw a mag and drop it then decide to shoot the remaining rounds out of my gun they would DQ me. After all I withdrew a mag which according to them is a starting a reload. That is asinine. It is being applied 100% incorrectly. It should be used for when you are actively attempting a reload and send a round because your finger is on the trigger. The gun is no longer being aimed at a target. Nothing is unsafe about aiming at a target and sending a round after you removed the mag period. 

I agree. 2.2.4.5 is clearly for a negligent/accidental discharge.

 

Awarding a penalty or DQ for shooting with a mag in the hand is just being vindictive, IMO.

 

The rule against staging mags was deleted. Get over it and move on.

[iboomer]

On 5/17/2023 at 3:14 PM, matteekay said:

 

Doesn't work for a PE. The only penalty you can give in relation to "stowing" is for dropped loading devices. There's no penalty for shooting with un-stowed magazines.

 

I agree that a DQ is not the answer.

Agreed 100%.