Reloading from the hand

[iboomer]

On 5/18/2023 at 2:00 PM, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

In the past I've been allowed to leave a position and leave the mag on the table what mags started. That was a gray area that was sometimes allowed sometimes not. I see they cleared that up in this rule book, but I bet it's still allowed sometimes. 

 

If mags are staged, you don't have to take them with you if you have not interacted with them after the start signal.

[iboomer]

On 5/17/2023 at 4:00 PM, Diver123 said:

mattee 8.6.1.4 is under ammunition carrier rules. Mags can only be stowed in two places. Carriers or in pockets. Unless you don't have carriers at all but im not addressing that. After the start signal they can optionally be stowed inside the belt. They are not considered stowed in your hand, armpit, mouth or similar scheme therefore you are violating 8..6.1.4. and breaking a rule. 5.1.1.2 states if you break a rule Thats a PE if you shoot.  A mag that is dropped also isn't in compliance with the rule but there is a rule that addresses that specifically allowing you to pick it up penalty free before last shot.

After the start signal, the only rule that requires a loading device to be properly "stowed" is if the shooter dropped it.

[iboomer]

On 5/17/2023 at 4:30 PM, Racinready300ex said:

 

I think the question still comes from when must the magazine be stowed? I don't see a rule that really says I must have my mags stowed when not in the firearm. 

 

Section 8.6 is about legal ammunition carrier rules not really about shooting rules.

 

The old reload rules 3.4.9 specifically said "A shooter may not remove a loading device after the start signal and stage it" That rule is gone now which makes me think staging should now be legal. Why else remove a vary clear rule. 

 

 

3.4.9 was deleted. "Staging" is no longer a penalty. It appears that people are using the "discharge while reloading" rule to try to enforce the old rule against staging. This is a non starter. Clearly, the "discharge while reloading" is meant for accidental/negligent discharges.

[iboomer]

On 5/18/2023 at 1:26 AM, matteekay said:

 

Where is the requirement that all mags must be stowed during a course of fire? Give me a rule number.

"8.6.2.4  The same exact location for magazines, magazine pouches, and/or ammunition feeding devices in pockets must be used for every stage in a single match, unless otherwise specified in a stage description."

Edited March 26 by iboomer

[iboomer]

On 5/18/2023 at 1:39 PM, Thomas H said:

My favorite version of this question is simple:

Unloaded start, magazines on the table.

 

On the beep, you pick up a mag, load it into the gun, and shoot the first array.  As you start moving to the second array, you pick up a magazine and hold it in your hand.  You then shoot the second array (with the magazine in your hand), then reload using the magazine in your hand.

 

Given that you aren't starting the stage with magazines stowed, and there is no requirement during the stage to stow any magazine OTHER than if you drop one---is there anything about the described situation that is illegal?

 

Part II:

On a different stage, you shoot the first array and perform a tac reload, keeping the extra magazine (with ammo still in it) in your hand while you shoot the last three targets of the stage.  As you have not dropped it, and have not left it behind, are you penalized for finishing the stage with it in your hand?

 

(In either case, if someone says there is a penalty, could you please point to the rule for said penalty?)

 

 

No penalty in either case. There used to be rules against "shooting while holding a loading device"  and "staging a loading device." Both rules were deleted. Let's move on.

 

If you can't specify a rule number to justify a penalty, then there is no penalty.

Edited March 26 by iboomer

[matteekay]

13 minutes ago, iboomer said:

"8.6.2.4  The same exact location for magazines, magazine pouches, and/or ammunition feeding devices in pockets must be used for every stage in a single match, unless otherwise specified in a stage description."

 

You're losing the context of my question. The gear requirement only specifies where everything has to be when the shooter starts the COF - it can't be extended to anything the shooter does after the start signal, which is how people were trying to cite 8.6.2.4. My argument is that it doesn't work in that context and ergo can't be used to award a PE for someone shooting with a mag in the hand (if withdrawn after the start signal).

 

 

8 minutes ago, iboomer said:

No penalty in either case. There used to be rules against "shooting while holding a loading device"  and "staging a loading device." Both rules were deleted. Let's move on.

 

If you can't specify a rule number to justify a penalty, then there is no penalty.

 

Please stop telling people to "move on". The reason this thread exists isn't to attempt to penalize people for shooting with a mag in the hand; it's to clarify what actually is and isn't a penalty as the IDPA rulebook is, unfortunately, very subjective. Most of the people replying are SO's and a lot of us are MD's so we need to know how to properly adjudicate shooter actions. IDPA is unwilling to provide black and white answers on these topics so here we are. 

 

Personally, I refuse to award a PE for "staging" when there's no hard rule about it. If IDPA wants to outlaw it, simply write a rule and it's handled.

[Thomas H]

On 3/25/2024 at 10:53 PM, iboomer said:

No penalty in either case. There used to be rules against "shooting while holding a loading device"  and "staging a loading device." Both rules were deleted. Let's move on.

 

If you can't specify a rule number to justify a penalty, then there is no penalty.

 

Yes, I agree.  Which doesn't change the fact that a LOT of people disagree with that set of statements, including cases where they give procedural penalties for it.

 

So my questions about those situation were for the people who are attempting to claim that there SHOULD be a penalty---I want them to justify it with a rule.  I'm aware that there isn't one, and people who agree with that don't have to say anything.  I just want the people who keep trying to give penalties for things that are legal, to have to actually justify their "rulings" with actual rules.

 

This conversation IS needed because of those people--and as has been said numerous times, an official response from IDPA HQ would solve this problem quickly, IF we could get anyone to officially respond regarding rules.

 

The current "the rules depends on your geographic location because it depends on your AC" method is not working well.

 

[iboomer]

On 4/8/2024 at 2:23 PM, Thomas H said:

The current "the rules depends on your geographic location because it depends on your AC" method is not working well.

 

 

Sad, but true.