Trigger Pull Speed Questions

[gargoil66]

Guys:

 

Question 1:

 

You have the revolver up and aimed at the A Zone of a IPSC target that is ten yards from you with the goal of shooting A Zone.

 

The buzzer sounds.

 

How fast is your trigger pull?

 

Question 2:

 

You have the revolver up and aimed into the middle of a 25 yard pistol bullseye -- at 25 yards with the goal of shooting a 10.

 

The buzzer sounds.

 

How fast is your trigger pull?

 

Thankyou!

 

GG

[ysrracer]

1. A fast as I can

2. See above

[pskys2]

What's your time starting and stopping a stop watch with your trigger finger?

.13

 

Technically that plus your reaction time to the buzzer.

.20

 

Probably.33?

 

What are your splits at those ranges?

.25 @10 yds and .55@25 yds, cold focused on a's.

[testosterone]

10 yds, the shot is gone well before the beep is over, the timer will be about .21 or thereabouts.

What i cant do with any durability is send the second one in the next .20 interval and have it fall pretty close to the first one.

My absolute best full send into berm are .18 which is slow compared to what the match winners can do.

 

A 10 on a b8?  Thats like 3"? And it HAS to be an 10?  Its very high confirmation, the dot needs to be very settled, something like .7 or .8 plus easy.

[gargoil66]

11 minutes ago, testosterone said:

10 yds, the shot is gone well before the beep is over, the timer will be about .21 or thereabouts.

What i cant do with any durability is send the second one in the next .20 interval and have it fall pretty close to the first one.

My absolute best full send into berm are .18 which is slow compared to what the match winners can do.

 

A 10 on a b8?  Thats like 3"? And it HAS to be an 10?  Its very high confirmation, the dot needs to be very settled, something like .7 or .8 plus easy.

TT:

 

Yes, B8 target.  The intent is a 10.  Not saying a guy will shoot one but he is trying to shoot 10's.  

 

Just getting an idea what 'good' is.

 

GG

[gargoil66]

17 hours ago, pskys2 said:

What's your time starting and stopping a stop watch with your trigger finger?

.13

 

Technically that plus your reaction time to the buzzer.

.20

 

Probably.33?

 

What are your splits at those ranges?

.25 @10 yds and .55@25 yds, cold focused on a's.

PK:

 

Interesting estimates.

 

I did this using the Manta X on a 10 inch plate target reduced from ten yards to about ten feet.  The Manta X is a motion detector and not a laser system.  It gives times and in this case, a score.  Just understand that the 'score' (I believe) is a percentage of perfect.  Perfect being absolutely no movement when the trigger is pulled.  I used my shot calls to estimate hits.   

 

I recorded this over a period of time using my 627 five inch with the TK action job and my 627 four inch with a Rev Up Action Hammer and spring kit.  Each one represents about 100 'shots' over six or seven dry fire sessions.

 

With the 5 inch TK Custom action my average time from buzzer to shot was .314 seconds with a average 'score' of 88.8 percent.  Based on my calls, I would have hit the ten inch plate about 97% of the time. 

 

With the 4 inch using the Rev Up Action hammer and springs, time from buzzer to shot was .318 seconds with an average 'score' of 87.3.  Based on my calls, I would have hit the plate about 95% of the time.

 

I find it interesting that the times were so close between the TK action job and the Rev Up Action trigger.  I thought there would be a bigger difference but not so.  I was not surprised with the percent score or my calls though.  The TK trigger is consistent throughout its entire pull and the RUA hammer and spring system starts hard and eases up.  So, more of a chance of blowing a shot.

 

I do a couple other exercises with the Mantis X when dry firing.  A decent way to track progress and it makes the otherwise ultra boring task of dry firing relatively interesting and focused.

 

Asked the question simply to get an idea of where I am compared to my 'cohort'.  Thankyou for your input!

 

GG

 

 

[testosterone]

Your test is interesting but its mainly measuring tour reaction time?

 

I think pulling the trigger as fast as you can, the quality of the trigger does not matter much until the gap gets extreme, like 12 or 14 lbs and even then probably not much if at all.

 

I think your intention to move your finger as fast as it will move is all that matters and the load and distance is such that the rate of acceleration will be constant and because the distance is so short any difference if even measurable is very very small.

 

I would add also, like on a longer shot, for me anyways, if its far and precise then the trigger speed will be slower, it just is.  Ive discussed this with some luminaries and they articulate the process much the same.   Pull the trigger as fast as i can for the shot is a refinement of as fast as i can all the time.

 

[gargoil66]

1 hour ago, testosterone said:

Your test is interesting but its mainly measuring tour reaction time?

 

I think pulling the trigger as fast as you can, the quality of the trigger does not matter much until the gap gets extreme, like 12 or 14 lbs and even then probably not much if at all.

 

I think your intention to move your finger as fast as it will move is all that matters and the load and distance is such that the rate of acceleration will be constant and because the distance is so short any difference if even measurable is very very small.

 

I would add also, like on a longer shot, for me anyways, if its far and precise then the trigger speed will be slower, it just is.  Ive discussed this with some luminaries and they articulate the process much the same.   Pull the trigger as fast as i can for the shot is a refinement of as fast as i can all the time.

 

TT:

 

The device measures time and how steady I hold the revolver when I pull the trigger.  I think it is a decent device for improving performance because it measures speed and consistency.  

 

I really was surprised that the pull time was so close between the TK action and the RUA Hammer though.   I was thinking the same as you state about the pull having to get way up there before the time difference would be of any significance.   

 

As for longer shots, maybe slightly longer time with the trigger but not very much longer.  

 

I did some looking in my text books and on line for reaction times and there are a huge amount of variables involved and for elite athletes the millisecond here and there makes a big difference.  I am not at that level yet.....

 

Illuminati eh....  Hmmm....  Best watch what I say here!

 

GG 

 

 

 

 

[Joe4d]

I think the ops test is measuring reaction time, not trigger pull time. Split between first and second shot would be a better measurement and more useful test. Especially considering no game I am aware starts you aiming at the target, and lots of games require 2 shots on target.

[pskys2]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

I think the ops test is measuring reaction time, not trigger pull time. Split between first and second shot would be a better measurement and more useful test. Especially considering no game I am aware starts you aiming at the target, and lots of games require 2 shots on target.

Closest is steel challenge Rimfire or pcc, yet that still has you bringing the firearm up.

And yes reaction time to the buzzer seems to be his question.

If I haven't been practicing my draws are over 1.2, if I focus and react to the beginning tone i can cut over.2 off.

[gargoil66]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

I think the ops test is measuring reaction time, not trigger pull time. Split between first and second shot would be a better measurement and more useful test. Especially considering no game I am aware starts you aiming at the target, and lots of games require 2 shots on target.

Joe:

 

Roger.  I started with the revolver pointed at the target to remove the variables involving drawing.   I just wanted to see how much time from the buzzer to a shot fired with a accuracy standard thrown in.  Had no desire to run a test on split times.

 

GG

[pskys2]

On 4/22/2023 at 12:23 PM, gargoil66 said:

Joe:

 

Roger.  I started with the revolver pointed at the target to remove the variables involving drawing.   I just wanted to see how much time from the buzzer to a shot fired with a accuracy standard thrown in.  Had no desire to run a test on split times.

 

GG

If I remember I did that and averaged around.2

[MikeBurgess]

10 yard A will be .2-.3 

25 yard 10 .5-1.5 

 

a lot of this has to do with what you mean by "goal of hitting" if its just my intention to shoot an A or 10 but if a C or a 9 means I need to make up the shot the times are going to average higher, not because I will start pulling the trigger slower but I will slow or stop the pull if the sights say the shot isn't going to go where I want it to.

[gargoil66]

13 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

10 yard A will be .2-.3 

25 yard 10 .5-1.5 

 

a lot of this has to do with what you mean by "goal of hitting" if its just my intention to shoot an A or 10 but if a C or a 9 means I need to make up the shot the times are going to average higher, not because I will start pulling the trigger slower but I will slow or stop the pull if the sights say the shot isn't going to go where I want it to.

Mike / Guys:

 

I put in the 'goal' of a specific score because it adds in the element of attentional focus and makes it more realistic.  

 

Not specifying anything else was deliberate on my part because every shooter will have some slightly different ways of defining these terms.  Based on their skill level, no matter how they differ in defining things, their responses are normally the same.  

 

So, if you and PKY say .25 - .3 from buzzer to shot my bet is that anyone else who actually tested themselves under similar conditions will have the same answer.  And I bet it will be closer to .3 than .2.  When you start getting down to .2 and below reaction time to a buzzer (noise), you are getting into the level of Olympic athletes.  Maybe MWP today and Enos in his day but most likely none of us today.  Just note that I am talking the time it takes for the brain to tell the finger to move.  You got to add in how long it takes to pull the trigger too.  And, how long it takes the mechanism to work and the shot to be fired.  

 

GG

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by gargoil66

[testosterone]

10 minutes ago, gargoil66 said:

Mike / Guys:

When you start getting down to .2 and below reaction time to a buzzer (noise), you are getting into the level of Olympic athletes.  Maybe MWP today and Enos in his day but most likely none of us today.  

 

GG

 

Nah, I can reliably break a .19 -23 as it shows on the timer.  

 

I know this because this is a specific isolation exercise I have been working on in practice(last week) which is finger all the way forward against trigger guard and shooter the paster at the beep(5 yds).  emphasis around keeping trigger hand as loose as possible.

 

caveat this practice has been with my 2011, so the trigger is easier by a million miles, but I am 100% confident I can do this under .30 with my revolver.

 

I am no Olympian and I have raging tinnitus and 20% hearing loss, i think anyone that goes out and works on this...reacting at the *start* of the beep and not "the beep" can do this, its not super human.

 

 

[gargoil66]

1 hour ago, testosterone said:

 

Nah, I can reliably break a .19 -23 as it shows on the timer.  

 

I know this because this is a specific isolation exercise I have been working on in practice(last week) which is finger all the way forward against trigger guard and shooter the paster at the beep(5 yds).  emphasis around keeping trigger hand as loose as possible.

 

caveat this practice has been with my 2011, so the trigger is easier by a million miles, but I am 100% confident I can do this under .30 with my revolver.

 

I am no Olympian and I have raging tinnitus and 20% hearing loss, i think anyone that goes out and works on this...reacting at the *start* of the beep and not "the beep" can do this, its not super human.

 

 

TT:

 

I can do it under .3 with my revolver too.

 

Just that I probably can't hold the A Zone at 10 yards reliably while going that fast. 

 

Plus I doubt I can get it under .25 with any consistency.

 

I do assume that the buzzer is random between 2 and 5 seconds so a guy can't base the pull on when he thinks the buzzer will go off.  That one I didn't put in my conditions but it is something that would make a test more reliable.

 

I think that the fastest theoretical time a human can react to a noise is 100 milliseconds.   .150 MS from noise to begin trigger pull would be considered pretty fast.  After that -- the semi auto has the edge for sure.  

 

GG

 

 

[Makicjf]

I few years ago at a weekly summer match, the range owner was collecting data for a book or study.  I don't remember which.

He has aiming, finger off the trigger at a 5-7 yard USPSA target. We fired off the beep.

IIRC, we did 5 "runs" and I ran between .15 and .17 . I had one run at .13, but I think I jumped the buzzer.

Several other GM and M shooters ran and there times were a few hundreths faster, on average.  I'm not exceptionally fast at anything, and single action triggers may have helped. I was the slowest of the "fast" guys firing a 625 with 230's at 735.

  The less experienced shooters had markedly slower times. They were much closer to what was predicted.  Karl said we really skewed the data.

   The numbers are not exact, but my recollection should be in the ball park.

You might try googling articles or books by Karl Rhen; I think he'll have the actual data your looking for.

Jason

[MikeBurgess]

the whole reaction time discussion is a fun one, and make the news at the last World Athletics (track and field) Championships. 

In high level Track competitions the starting blocks have pressure sensors in them to detect false starts, the false start criteria is you start pushing off before 0.1 AFTER the gun sounds a US competitor pushed of at 0.99 and was DQed. for it

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

This discussion is why good ROs do not use the same cadence for every shooter, its very easy to cut this time well down if you know the guy an the clock has a cadence, you can even go early and get away with it because he will have a lag in his ability to know it was actually early

 

[gargoil66]

Guys:

 

OK -- so I tried it out after my training today.

 

Not many rounds fired but just wanted to give it a go live fire. 

 

Shot a six inch paper plate at ten yards.

 

Had my timer set on Random between three and five seconds.  Enough time for me to press the button and get my position but in the future I will go between three and eight seconds.  Between three and five I think I was able to anticipate the buzzer.  Not sure but between three and eight seconds should eliminate this potential.

 

Only shot about fifteen rounds using my 627-5 with the TK action.

 

And Mike was more right than me on this. 

 

My average time with hits was about .23.  Times of .20 were pretty regular but hits weren't.

 

I did do a .19 shot with a hit and tried to repeat it but couldn't.

 

Hmmm....

 

That was a fun little exercise and I think it can be useful in developing grip, stance, and a fast and precise trigger pull.  I think I will throw this into my Bag-O-Drills (BOD) and see where it takes me. 

 

Good stuff!

 

GG

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MWP]

15 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

Mike / Guys:

 

I put in the 'goal' of a specific score because it adds in the element of attentional focus and makes it more realistic.  

 

Not specifying anything else was deliberate on my part because every shooter will have some slightly different ways of defining these terms.  Based on their skill level, no matter how they differ in defining things, their responses are normally the same.  

 

So, if you and PKY say .25 - .3 from buzzer to shot my bet is that anyone else who actually tested themselves under similar conditions will have the same answer.  And I bet it will be closer to .3 than .2.  When you start getting down to .2 and below reaction time to a buzzer (noise), you are getting into the level of Olympic athletes.  Maybe MWP today and Enos in his day but most likely none of us today.  Just note that I am talking the time it takes for the brain to tell the finger to move.  You got to add in how long it takes to pull the trigger too.  And, how long it takes the mechanism to work and the shot to be fired.  

 

GG

 

 

 

 

Honestly I don’t think I’d be faster than anyone else, especially someone else who holds a GM card. Maybe another topic of discussion- does this actually matter? 
 

I did 8 tonight at practice. Stop plate on limits. The first 6 were .16-.18 double action, the last 2 were both .14 staged. I was warm as it was mid practice. I think my limit on this would be .11-.12 with a short trigger. 
 

There is a great reaction time calc at:

 https://racing-elite.com/2019/08/14/f1-test-test-your-reaction-time-at-the-start-of-the-f1-race/

I just did it 3 times. .291, .285, .271. I think these times will be pretty normal for my demographics in life, not shooting. 

 

 

[Makicjf]

My visual response was at .32-.35. 

According to this blurb, those reaction times are normal.

Auditory stimuli has a faster response than visual, while tactile is the fastest of all.

Jason

[gargoil66]

9 hours ago, MWP said:

Honestly I don’t think I’d be faster than anyone else, especially someone else who holds a GM card. Maybe another topic of discussion- does this actually matter? 
 

I did 8 tonight at practice. Stop plate on limits. The first 6 were .16-.18 double action, the last 2 were both .14 staged. I was warm as it was mid practice. I think my limit on this would be .11-.12 with a short trigger. 
 

There is a great reaction time calc at:

 https://racing-elite.com/2019/08/14/f1-test-test-your-reaction-time-at-the-start-of-the-f1-race/

I just did it 3 times. .291, .285, .271. I think these times will be pretty normal for my demographics in life, not shooting. 

 

 

MP:

 

I think the theoretical limit given audible stimulus is .100 MS.  At least this is the time limit where a sprinter gets an automatic false start.  I don't think anyone knows precisely.  Too many variables for anyone to figure out a limit.

 

Is it important?  Given the game is one of speed and precision, I can't see how it can be ignored.  However in terms of training priorities, training to reduce reaction time by a hundredth of a second probably doesn't rank way up there.  Reducing time spend over an entire stage would be of a lot more value I believe.  

 

Sure, I intend on doing the exercise I mentioned but more to develop a faster and more precise trigger pull and a more effective grip and stance than to reduce my reaction time although I am sure that will happen too.  Easy enough to run for five or ten shots and a change of focus when things start getting boring or slow down due to fatigue.

 

GG

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MWP]

4 hours ago, Makicjf said:

My visual response was at .32-.35. 

According to this blurb, those reaction times are normal.

Auditory stimuli has a faster response than visual, while tactile is the fastest of all.

Jason

Interesting. I need to do some more reading on this. 
 

It’s interesting to me how the visual reaction is so much slower than an auditory reaction, but that they seem to swap places after that. 

[MWP]

3 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

MP:

 

I think the theoretical limit given audible stimulus is .100 MS.  At least this is the time limit where a sprinter gets an automatic false start.  I don't think anyone knows precisely.  Too many variables for anyone to figure out a limit.

 

Is it important?  Given the game is one of speed and precision, I can't see how it can be ignored.  However in terms of training priorities, training to reduce reaction time by a hundredth of a second probably doesn't rank way up there.  Reducing time spend over an entire stage would be of a lot more value I believe.  

 

Sure, I intend on doing the exercise I mentioned but more to develop a faster and more precise trigger pull and a more effective grip and stance than to reduce my reaction time although I am sure that will happen too.  Easy enough to run for five or ten shots and a change of focus when things start getting boring or slow down due to fatigue.

 

GG

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would think that 100ms or .10 seems about right, maybe even a hair slower and that’s why the Olympics set it at that. This explains the trigger pulls I had at .14 with trigger staged.

 

I personally haven’t spend much time training or thinking about the conscious reaction to the buzzer, but I have spent time with the unconscious reactions to things during shooting. I think there are huge gains to be had there.