Single Stack Division, Major Or Minor?

[Bob Hostetter]

I have been competing in Single Stack using a 45acp, because that is what I had lying around when I decided to shoot the division. However I have been closely comparing the results of Production Division against Single Stack and have noticed some interesting things. Depending on the stage designs you might be better off with 10 rounds of minor then 8 rounds of major. This of course assumes you can shoot the required number of "A's", but sometimes equally skilled Production shooters are finishing with better stage factors then Single Stack shooters on the same stages.

So.......I am now building myself a 10 round 1911 in 38 Super Comp for Single Stack to use when the stages are just right. Kinda like the ones at Area 2 later this week........

[38superman]

I just recently bought a 9mm Springfield Armory Loaded 1911 in stainless.

I am toying with the idea of shooting in SS minor.

Okay, I can hear you guys out there already.

Minor is not the way to go.

However, the idea of two extra rounds and light recoil appeals to me.

Also, cheap ammo = more practice.

It will also be nice not having to lug 30 lbs of ammo in my range bag.

I also think it will help my shooting in other divisions.

I have never been able to break myself of the habit of shooting at the whole target instead of the A zone.

Shooting minor will force me to start aiming better and calling my shots.

The only thing lacking is a fiber optic front sight.

I just need to fit the sight and pick up some 10 round mags.

Availability of 10 rd mags is something of a problem.

There aren't too many folks making them.

It has been stated that a 10 rounder might not fit in the "box".

That seems kinda weird to me.

Why would USPSA explicitly state that 10 round mags are okay and then require you to put them in a box that won't fit them?

Looking forward to taking it to the range.

This gun actually feels a little heavier than my 45 springer.

I'm betting the recoil is next to nothing.

Tls

Edited February 13, 2008 by 38superman

[mattbeck]

Since I don't have a dog in this race, my only question is what is a dedicated revolver shooter such as Carmoney doing in this discussion? Heck, he's even addmitting to owning and shooting one of those evil bottom feeding thingies. I just don't understand.

[PJONES5]

I just recently bought a 9mm Springfield Armory Loaded 1911 in stainless.

I am toying with the idea of shooting in SS minor.

Okay, I can hear you guys out there already.

Minor is not the way to go.

However, the idea of two extra rounds and light recoil appeals to me.

Also, cheap ammo = more practice.

It will also be nice not having to lug 30 lbs of ammo in my range bag.

I also think it will help my shooting in other divisions.

I have never been able to break myself of the habit of shooting at the whole target instead of the A zone.

Shooting minor will force me to start aiming better and calling my shots.

The only thing lacking is a fiber optic front sight.

I just need to fit the sight and pick up some 10 round mags.

Availability of 10 rd mags is something of a problem.

There aren't too many folks making them.

It has been stated that a 10 rounder might not fit in the "box".

That seems kinda weird to me.

Why would USPSA explicitly state that 10 round mags are okay and then require you to put them in a box that won't fit them?

Looking forward to taking it to the range.

This gun actually feels a little heavier than my 45 springer.

I'm betting the recoil is next to nothing

Tls

SS rules require that the Gun and inserted mag fit a box,I don't have the dimensions handy but is similar to the IDPA box.

I shot SS for the last 3 years and never saw any advantage to shooting minor.

Check all the big matches,see how many shoot minor.

PAT

[Catfish]

I'm toying with this exact same conundrum.

I think at some matches, the 9mm route actually makes sense. For example - Porter's stages at Double Tap. Ranges tend to be VERY close, and Porter tends to have steel in each array - which means with 9 rounds in the gun (shooting major), miss the steel one time and the rest of the stage is pretty much hosed.

The ability to have 11 in the gun gives me an option to pick up the pace a tad on the steel and the close in range of the targets will still allow me to easily hit A's on paper at speed.

So, long story short, I think IMHO, that for certain types of matches, the 9mm route is very workable.

I will do quite a bit of testing - using Leatham's drills as a guideline - and shoot the 9mm and .45 side by side on the same drills to see if there's an actual shooting advantage and not just a percieved advantage.

I'm looking at Tripp's mags, they hold 10 - anyone have any experience with them??

[Matt Cheely]

Before the shots per position was dropped to 8, shooting minor with 10 rounds was a no-brainer.

With the rules change, I'm shooting major. If you're going to win the match you won't be taking extra shots anyway.

[38superman]

I checked the "box" in the rules addendum and it says 8 15/16" x 6" x 1 5/8"

I haven't measured my gun but the specs from the manufacturer say it is 8 1/2" x 5 1/2" with a 9 round mag.

That extra half inch should allow for an extra round of 9mm if the basepad isn't too thick.

One of the main issues with me is that 10 rounds lets me come to the line with 4 mags on my belt.

That will get me through a 32+ round field course.

With 8 rounders I need a fifth mag.

With the rule about magazines being positioned behind the hip bone, it is a real stretch to reach back that far.

[Carmoney]

Since I don't have a dog in this race, my only question is what is a dedicated revolver shooter such as Carmoney doing in this discussion? Heck, he's even addmitting to owning and shooting one of those evil bottom feeding thingies. I just don't understand.

Hey man, my first competition handgun back in the '80s was a Colt 1911 .45! I'm definitely not a revolver purist.

In fact, there are only two things I truly hate in this world--people who are intolerant of other people's choice in firearms.......and Glocks.

[PJONES5]

Since I don't have a dog in this race, my only question is what is a dedicated revolver shooter such as Carmoney doing in this discussion? Heck, he's even addmitting to owning and shooting one of those evil bottom feeding thingies. I just don't understand.

Hey man, my first competition handgun back in the '80s was a Colt 1911 .45! I'm definitely not a revolver purist.

In fact, there are only two things I truly hate in this world--people who are intolerant of other people's choice in firearms.......and Glocks.

:angry2:

pat

[38superman]

Before the shots per position was dropped to 8, shooting minor with 10 rounds was a no-brainer.

With the rules change, I'm shooting major. If you're going to win the match you won't be taking extra shots anyway.

That's true Matt.

But you're also not going to win the match shooting a load of Charlies and Deltas.

[Matt Cheely]

Before the shots per position was dropped to 8, shooting minor with 10 rounds was a no-brainer.

With the rules change, I'm shooting major. If you're going to win the match you won't be taking extra shots anyway.

That's true Matt.

But you're also not going to win the match shooting a load of Charlies and Deltas.

That takes us back to the regular old argument of major vs. minor. You're not going to shoot the minor gun fast enough to overcome the benefit major scoring gives you on movers and partials. I agree there is probably more advantage to shooting minor in SS vs. Limited, but I still think most will be shooting major.

[38superman]

Before the shots per position was dropped to 8, shooting minor with 10 rounds was a no-brainer.

With the rules change, I'm shooting major. If you're going to win the match you won't be taking extra shots anyway.

That's true Matt.

But you're also not going to win the match shooting a load of Charlies and Deltas.

That takes us back to the regular old argument of major vs. minor. You're not going to shoot the minor gun fast enough to overcome the benefit major scoring gives you on movers and partials. I agree there is probably more advantage to shooting minor in SS vs. Limited, but I still think most will be shooting major.

You're probably right but I think I'm going to give it a go anyway.

As a B shooter I'm not much of a threat to win matches (yet).

I think it will be a good exercise for me to start focusing more on that A zone.

Edited February 13, 2008 by 38superman

[Catfish]

Before the shots per position was dropped to 8, shooting minor with 10 rounds was a no-brainer.

With the rules change, I'm shooting major. If you're going to win the match you won't be taking extra shots anyway.

I agree with you to a point, Matt. In the scenario I talked about earlier, say, 8 round array with 3 paper and two small steel - and then you might have two or three of these arrays in a COF - miss one steel somewhere and you're pooched with 9 in the gun.

I'm also adding to the equation that 500 FMJ .45 bullets are costing me in the neighborhood of $60 per + nearly $30 for a brick of primers and powder. 500 9mm is a bit less than that - which means I can practice more.

I don't know if there's an answer for me yet at this point. I am going to explore it a bit and see what happens on the local match scene.

[Flexmoney]

One of the main issues with me is that 10 rounds lets me come to the line with 4 mags on my belt.

That will get me through a 32+ round field course.

With 8 rounders I need a fifth mag.

With the rule about magazines being positioned behind the hip bone, it is a real stretch to reach back that far.

In Production (10 rounds, behind the hip bone) I roll with 6 mags...1 in the gun and 5 on the belt. It can be a reach if you need to go back that far...and it's a pain on seated starts...but, it's good to have them.

[Bergie]

I have the Springfield loaded 9mm and use it for SS.

I use 10 round McCormick 38 Super mags which work flawlessly with 10 rounds of 9mm.

It does fit in the box with the mag inserted with the standard base pad.

You may not win matches shooting minor but you may not win shooting major either.

I shoot 9mm simply because it's way more fun!

It also is quite a bit less expensive.

Shoot what you have fun shoooting!

[Matt Cheely]

One of the main issues with me is that 10 rounds lets me come to the line with 4 mags on my belt.

That will get me through a 32+ round field course.

With 8 rounders I need a fifth mag.

With the rule about magazines being positioned behind the hip bone, it is a real stretch to reach back that far.

In Production (10 rounds, behind the hip bone) I roll with 6 mags...1 in the gun and 5 on the belt. It can be a reach if you need to go back that far...and it's a pain on seated starts...but, it's good to have them.

Eat more Twinkies. Then you don't have to reach so far back.

I run 5 pouches. I would if I was shooting 10 rounds too. Can't have too many mags.

[Chris Keen]

Yeah I recently just purchased a 5th mag pouch for my SS rig, and yes it feels funny to sit down in a chair with that last mag poking me in the back, but I'd take a pain in the back over the pain in the a$$ it would be if I ran out of mags in the middle of a field course!

Besides it's not like we're talking about a double-stack mag & pouch sticking you in the back! If I need it, I can get to it without much trouble but let's hope it never comes to that. Especially at the Single Stack Classic where all the stages are a 24 round-count max.

[bigsaxdog]

been doing the 9mm SS thing for a while, even shot Mr. Carmoney's revo/SS match with it. borrowed gun, gotta give it back soon. i'm a bogart, what can i say? anyway........1st thing is, you gotta have 10rd mags, and i just have the 9rd mec-gar's. 2nd thing is minor scoring sux! 3rd is the guns are real soft, 147gr zeros and 3.7 american select is .22like, makes you aim more, however you want to define the aiming process. you gotta shoot alot of a's, or it ain't good! didn't know about 10rd tripp's, that sounds interesting, but i had some .45 tripps that i returned twice, refunded, and then he sent me more free(thanx, virgil!), but they still wouldn't work custom .45's w/ 1000's of rounds of wilsons, so....YMMV. if i was gonna get totally single stack serious, .40 is the shizzit. major and better recoil than .45. .45's and 185 berry's ain't bad, though.....

[pjb45]

A couple of years ago, Taran and Dave shot the SS/Production match in Moro Bay. In the overall, Dave crushed Taran. Dave attributed to knowing he had two extra rounds which allowed him to go faster. The match was a SS match setup.

Now the downside of the potential conclusion to be drawn is that Dave and Taran are not like the rest of us. What worked for them is not necessarily applicable to us.

If minor and an extra two rounds make you faster with the same points then it may be worthwhile to do.

I will experiment with it soon.

[Catfish]

A couple of years ago, Taran and Dave shot the SS/Production match in Moro Bay. In the overall, Dave crushed Taran. Dave attributed to knowing he had two extra rounds which allowed him to go faster. The match was a SS match setup.

Now the downside of the potential conclusion to be drawn is that Dave and Taran are not like the rest of us. What worked for them is not necessarily applicable to us.

If minor and an extra two rounds make you faster with the same points then it may be worthwhile to do.

I will experiment with it soon.

Exactly my point. I think it's worth experimenting with. Maybe it will work (for me) and maybe it won't. But I think it's worth the effort and the journey is 95% of the fun anyway.

[Chills1994]

Matt Cheely wrote:

Before the shots per position was dropped to 8, shooting minor with 10 rounds was a no-brainer.

With the rules change, I'm shooting major. If you're going to win the match you won't be taking extra shots anyway.

When did that rule change?

IF....IF??? (and that's a big IF) I looked at the results correctly, then that might explain why the highest placed minor PF'ed shooter at the 2007 SSC placed where he did (84th) versus how some minor PF'ed shooters placed in 2006 (4th).

2007 SSC results cut and paste:

81 Jim B. L906 B Single Stack..................Major...... No No Senior 644.7320 60.65%

82 Rob G. TY46603 M Single Stack..........Major...... No No 641.8540 60.38%

83 Lon E. A24498 A Single Stack.............Major...... No No 637.4712 59.96%

84 Johnny L. A43302 B Single Stack........Minor......No No 636.1611 59.84%

85 Lee E. L1177 A Single Stack...............Minor.......No No Senior 633.2203 59.56%

86 Charles W. A54826 B Single Stack......Major....... No No 630.6730 59.32%

2006 SCC results cut and paste:

3 Dave S. TY42164 GM Single Stack................Major........... No No 808.5440 89.24%

4 Taran B. L2354 GM Single Stack...................Minor.............No No 804.6353 88.81%

5 Tony H. L2485 M Single Stack.......................Major........... No No 796.3688 87.90%

6 Michael V. RD4 GM Single Stack....................Major........... No No 783.2937 86.46%

7 Doug K. A5804 U Single Stack......................Minor.............No No 779.6160 86.05%

8 Ted P. TY42094 M Single Stack.....................Major............ No No 769.9185 84.98%

If the 2008 SSC is set up to be 8 + 1 friendly, then I'd say it's a no brainer to shoot a major PF'ed gun then.

I'd say that the minor PF'ed guys would be at a definite disadvantage. Bummer for them.

I could be wrong and YMMV. (Right Rick?, wink, wink )

I guess at the local level you all will just have to lug 2 guns around: one 10 + 1 minor PF'ed, and an 8 + 1 major PF'ed. See what the stages look like and sign up accordingly.

[38superman]

I agree.

It really depends on where you shoot.

From what I've heard of the recent Florida Open.

Single Stack Major would have been brutal.

Tls

[Matt Cheely]

That rule changed for the 2008 rule book. Someone look it up if you like.

The SS Classic has always been 8+1 friendly with array's and 24 round max stages.

[Chills1994]

Matt Cheely wrote:

The SS Classic has always been 8+1 friendly with array's and 24 round max stages.

Okay....

So are the 2007 results listed on the USPSA website messed up WRT to who shot major and who shot minor?

I'm just curious why some minor guys placed so much higer in 2006 versus 2007 (again, if I combed through the results right in the first place).

Granted some of the guys in 2006 could have placed high if they were shooting a sling shot. LOL!

I have NOT perused the squad lists well enough this year to see who all is shooting minor or major. BUT, one would think that with projectile prices being the way they are this year , there would be tons more people shooting minor.

[HoMiE]

Some of those shooting minor didn't intended to shoot minor, but the chrono results did not allow them to be scored as major.