Everglades barrel leg cutting fixture

[Cam73]

Hey folks-

Does anyone here have experience with the Everglades Ammo barrel leg cutting fixture? Do you like it and would you buy it again? Did you incorporate a work stop for the slide and/or use an indicator to avoid over cutting? 

 

It's quite a bit more expensive than buying the Brownells lug cutter handle and the Chambers Custom cutters. Cutter RPM appears to be the advantage since the slide is advanced by hand with both systems.

 

Thanks

 

 

[zzt]

Why bother.  You have to use the Chambers cutters anyway.  So why use a mill.  They cut like butter.  Buy a Nolan Barrel Feet Alignment Tool (as recommended by Chambers) and have at it.  https://www.nowlinarms.com/product/barrel-feet-alignment-tool/  You cut until the thumb safety will engage.

 

[Nolan]

5 hours ago, zzt said:

Why bother.  You have to use the Chambers cutters anyway.  So why use a mill.  They cut like butter.  Buy a Nolan Barrel Feet Alignment Tool (as recommended by Chambers) and have at it.  https://www.nowlinarms.com/product/barrel-feet-alignment-tool/  You cut until the thumb safety will engage.

 

Wow, I didn't know I was making Barrel Feet Alignment tools.

 

 

Just kidding!

Nolan

[yigal]

5 hours ago, Nolan said:

Wow, I didn't know I was making Barrel Feet Alignment tools.

 

 

Just kidding!

Nolan

You can not post such jokes here .It's dangerous because almost everyone in this forum has a weapon

[Cam73]

On 4/9/2022 at 1:54 PM, zzt said:

Why bother.  You have to use the Chambers cutters anyway.  So why use a mill.  They cut like butter.  Buy a Nolan Barrel Feet Alignment Tool (as recommended by Chambers) and have at it.  https://www.nowlinarms.com/product/barrel-feet-alignment-tool/  You cut until the thumb safety will engage.

 

Not really sure, I guess that is why I was asking if the mill and fixture offered any advantage. Still trying to understand the process but using a system that cuts the barrel feet in frame (accounting for the various aggregate tolerance stack) and how the barrel sits in lockup makes sense. Be it Brownells or something else.

 

Since we are on the topic-

What determines the ideal point to stop cutting the lower lugs? I've read a lot about thumb safety engagement, flat length, foot thickness and disconnector slot alignment but haven't found a hard and fast rule for a new guy to follow. 

 

Thanks 

 

[ltdmstr]

You're talking about different tools for different jobs.  The Everglades fixture is used when cutting the hood width and length.  The Wilson lug cutter along with the Cherry Corners alignment block and Nowlin barrel feet alignment tool, are used to cut the bottom lugs on the barrel.  With the Weigand barrel fitting fixture, which costs about $400, you can do all these steps on a mill.

Edited April 12, 2022 by ltdmstr

[Cam73]

11 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

You're talking about different tools for different jobs.  The Everglades fixture is used when cutting the hood width and length.  The Wilson lug cutter along with the Cherry Corners alignment block and Nowlin barrel feet alignment tool, are used to cut the bottom lugs on the barrel.  With the Weigand barrel fitting fixture, which costs about $400, you can do all these steps on a mill.

 

They do offer a barrel holding fixture for fitting the hood but that is not what I’m talking about.
 

https://www.evergladesammo.com/everglades-barrel-leg-cutting-fixture.html
 

 

[ltdmstr]

16 minutes ago, Cam73 said:

 

They do offer a barrel holding fixture for fitting the hood but that is not what I’m talking about.
 

https://www.evergladesammo.com/everglades-barrel-leg-cutting-fixture.html
 

 

 

Sorry, never saw that one before.  With that tool, you just put the barrel in the slide and slide/barrel on the frame and then use a gage pin to determine how much to remove (subtract the gage pin diameter from the slide stop diameter). On the the length of the cut, I would use a stop to avoid cutting past the existing radius.  From there, I would disassemble, clean and check fit, link down, etc..

[Braxton1]

<<

Since we are on the topic-

What determines the ideal point to stop cutting the lower lugs? I've read a lot about thumb safety engagement, flat length, foot thickness and disconnector slot alignment but haven't found a hard and fast rule for a new guy to follow. 

>>

 

 

Weigand's fixture cuts to where the center of the Slide Stop pin is 0.035" farther back than the centerline of the Barrel Link Pin, IIRC.

 

Is that what you were trying to ask?

 

 

[Cam73]

2 hours ago, Braxton1 said:

<<

Since we are on the topic-

What determines the ideal point to stop cutting the lower lugs? I've read a lot about thumb safety engagement, flat length, foot thickness and disconnector slot alignment but haven't found a hard and fast rule for a new guy to follow. 

>>

 

 

Weigand's fixture cuts to where the center of the Slide Stop pin is 0.035" farther back than the centerline of the Barrel Link Pin, IIRC.

 

Is that what you were trying to ask?

 

 

 

More or less, that distance between centers ultimately translates into the "flat length" mentioned above.

 

Since originally posting, I came across a great thread on one of the 1911 forums where a gunsmith/forum member called out the link pin CL to barrel foot radius (aft edge) dimension .140" +-.002" found on pg. 109 of Kuhnhausen Vol. 2 then subtracted half the slide stop pin diameter to arrive at .040" flat between tangents. Pretty close to Weigand's fixture. The thread also discussed Ed Brown's .030" up to .060" (with link pin lower hole modification) spec in their barrel fitting instructions. There was some follow on discussion about target barrel foot thickness, but I don't see how that applies to a Clark/Para configuration.

 

I'm going to study the better of the 2 examples I own before getting started. Maybe compare some numbers since the new gun has the same frame/barrel combination. Feeling confident I have a general idea of how to mess this up now.

 

 Is the 3 cutter set from Chambers necessary?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

[zzt]

8 hours ago, Cam73 said:

Is the 3 cutter set from Chambers necessary?

 

I bought the two cutter set and it was fine.  It is possible you will have to remove an extra .001" by hard.  No big deal.  IMO that is better than finishing with the .195 and finding out you took too much off.  If you are not comfortable finishing by hand, buy the three cutter set, but check the fit after using the .193.

[Cam73]

On 4/13/2022 at 6:00 AM, zzt said:

 

I bought the two cutter set and it was fine.  It is possible you will have to remove an extra .001" by hard.  No big deal.  IMO that is better than finishing with the .195 and finding out you took too much off.  If you are not comfortable finishing by hand, buy the three cutter set, but check the fit after using the .193.

Thanks.

I'm going to try the 2 cutter set. 

 

On a side note-

I started filling out the frame to slide fit worksheet and had one question.

Frame rail height is .004" less than the frame rail groove height in the slide. The slide is going to require .005" removed from the underside to fit onto the frame.

 

Is it typical for frame/slide vertical play to be established by the thickness of material on the slide under the frame groove? (If that makes sense) The slide is going to have to run on top of the frame (the small raised areas) for a nice fit.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Cam73

[zzt]

14 hours ago, Cam73 said:

Thanks.

I'm going to try the 2 cutter set. 

 

On a side note-

I started filling out the frame to slide fit worksheet and had one question.

Frame rail height is .004" less than the frame rail groove height in the slide. The slide is going to require .005" removed from the underside to fit onto the frame.

 

Is it typical for frame/slide vertical play to be established by the thickness of material on the slide under the frame groove? (If that makes sense) The slide is going to have to run on top of the frame (the small raised areas) for a nice fit.

 

I'm not sure I understand.  Today the slide typically runs on the bottom of the slide, not the deck (top of the frame rail).  Having to remove .005"~.006" from the bottom of the slide is also pretty common.  If you have already sized the frame rail to the slide way, remove material from the bottom of the slide until you get an interference fit.  I'm not sure how you derived you numbers, but you may also have to remove .001"+ from the deck. 

 

At this point the slide rail completely fills the frame way.  There is no vertical play, because the bottom of the slide is rubbing the bottom of the frame way, and the top of the slide rail is rubbing on the top of the frame way.  How you finish from here is up to you.  I prefer to use stones  and a surface plate with sand paper (down to 6000 grit) to finish the bottom of the slide.  If you machine fit the frame rails all you have to do is burnish them by lubing and running the slide back and forth on the frame a couple/three hundred times.  I prefer a smoother finish, so I use 4000 grit diamond paste mixed with oil.  It is smoother and doesn't take a couple hundred passes to complete.

[Cam73]

6 hours ago, zzt said:

 

I'm not sure I understand.  Today the slide typically runs on the bottom of the slide, not the deck (top of the frame rail).  Having to remove .005"~.006" from the bottom of the slide is also pretty common.  If you have already sized the frame rail to the slide way, remove material from the bottom of the slide until you get an interference fit.  I'm not sure how you derived you numbers, but you may also have to remove .001"+ from the deck. 

 

At this point the slide rail completely fills the frame way.  There is no vertical play, because the bottom of the slide is rubbing the bottom of the frame way, and the top of the slide rail is rubbing on the top of the frame way.  How you finish from here is up to you.  I prefer to use stones  and a surface plate with sand paper (down to 6000 grit) to finish the bottom of the slide.  If you machine fit the frame rails all you have to do is burnish them by lubing and running the slide back and forth on the frame a couple/three hundred times.  I prefer a smoother finish, so I use 4000 grit diamond paste mixed with oil.  It is smoother and doesn't take a couple hundred passes to complete.

 

My nomenclature could use some work.

 

I think you answered my question, but let me attempt to confirm:

All 3 internal surfaces of the slide frame way (groove in the slide) are not responsible for a tight slide/frame fit. The 2 lower surfaces (outside and bottom) of the frame way and the underside of the slide/top of frame relationship are what limit vertical and lateral play. A little room between the frame deck and upper frame way surface is preferred. Does that sound right?

 

 

 

 

[ltdmstr]

Sounds right.  Typically, you're removing material from the bottom of the slide and sides of the frame.  That's it.

[Cam73]

On 4/12/2022 at 8:25 AM, ltdmstr said:

 

Sorry, never saw that one before.  With that tool, you just put the barrel in the slide and slide/barrel on the frame and then use a gage pin to determine how much to remove (subtract the gage pin diameter from the slide stop diameter). On the the length of the cut, I would use a stop to avoid cutting past the existing radius.  From there, I would disassemble, clean and check fit, link down, etc..

 

Can you elaborate on the gage pin/slide stop pin comparison method a little bit?

 

I have the frame/slide/barrel hood/upper lugs fit. I think I'm ready to cut the lowers. 

 

There is some play in the slide fit (both directions) and the barrel hood fit is what one might call reliably loose, ha. Nothing like my old RIA, but that's not hard to beat. I learned a lot of good lessons... the interactions of the different interference points and knowing when and where to take material to get the desired result created some challenges. One of those "you don't know what you don't know" kinda deals. Looking back, I should have put a lot more prep work into the slide before taking any hard numbers or fitting. It's amazing what a sandblast finish will hide.

 

With the barrel in the slide and the slide on the frame, the barrel locks-up hard on a minus .181" gage pin and allows the thumb safety to engage. It will lock-up on a minus .182" gage pin however the thumb safety won't engage. Smaller pins move the barrel up but the lack the hard fit feel. Markings on the feet don't indicate a very even contact pattern.

 

The Cheely slide stop pin is .199" and I have the Chambers 2 cutter set now.

 

Time to cut? 

 

Thanks for the input.

 

[ltdmstr]

9 hours ago, Cam73 said:

 

Can you elaborate on the gage pin/slide stop pin comparison method a little bit?

 

 

Sure.  The gage pin just tells you how much needs to be removed from the horizontal surface of the bottom lugs by simply subtracting the size of the gage pin from the size of your slide stop.  In your case, that would be .199 - .181 = .018.  But that's really only useful if you're making the cut on a mill with a fixture.  If you're using the Chambers cutter, you really have no way to accurately control the depth of the cut.  With the Chambers tool, you need to use the Cherry Corners alignment block (or similar) and the Nowlin barrel lockup tool to hold the barrel square and fully locked up position when you cut.

[zzt]

9 hours ago, Cam73 said:

Time to cut? 

 

Not yet.  The uneven contact pattern may mean the hood is not fit correctly.  You said it was loose, but it may not fit when the barrel is centered.  Use your Nowlin tool to make sure the barrel is centered and the hood clears.  If it clears it is time to cut.

 

The Nowlin tool has to be positioned properly.  If it slides freely into the lugs, good.  Use the screw to push the barrel all the way into lock up.  Don't go too far or you'll push the tool out past the surface of the lugs.  If the tool is a tight fit you have to be careful.  When you tap the tool into the lugs the barrel must be pressed down into battery so the top lugs are fully engaged.  If you don't, you'll take too much off and have to use a 2 or 2.5 link.

 

Put the slide on the frame and start with the .186 cutter.  You can insert it from either side, but be sure to turn it in the correct direction.  If you turn it backwards you'll dull the cutters.  Use lots of lube on the cutters.

 

BTW, if you have centered the bottom lugs in the slide (with Nowlin tool) and the hood clears, the fit is not that important.  For instance, Kart recommends .003" clearance on each side and .001" clearance at the rear.  I took too much off the hood on the first barrel I fit and had to weld it up and refit it 'correctly'.  I listened to the bullseye boys who said the rear of the hood HAD to touch the breach face.  I now know that is BS.  I didn't like the look of the weld.  So I fit another barrel and decided to experiment on the first.  I put a generous clearance on the sides of the hood and took .003" off the back.  I put it in the gun and it shot exactly as well as previously.  This was in my competition gun.  I took another .003" off the back of the hood and shot it again.  Absolutely no difference in group size.  After I had removed .013" and saw no change, I gave up.  So I wouldn't worry about 'reliably loose'.

Edited May 10, 2022 by zzt

[ltdmstr]

The Nowlin tool does not accurately center the barrel lugs.  That's what the Cherry Corner alignment block is for.  Also, cranking the set screw on the Nowlin tool can spring the barrel.  You have to measure the lockup and use care to install it properly.  Use high sulfur content thread cutting oil when you cut the lugs.

Edited May 10, 2022 by ltdmstr
typo

[zzt]

4 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

The Nowlin tool does not accurately center the barrel lugs.  That's what the Cherry Corner alignment block is for.

 

It has centered it perfectly when I have used it.  The Cherry Corner block is no longer available.  The Brownell's is so so.

[ltdmstr]

Ok.  I learned how to build 1911s from John Nowlin himself 25+ years ago.  And he used the alignment block along with his tool.  The problem you have without it is that if the barrel hood isn't cut perfectly (as in OP's case), the tool does not guarantee alignment.  But, if it's no longer available, it's kind of a moot point.  

[zzt]

4 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

The problem you have without it is that if the barrel hood isn't cut perfectly (as in OP's case), the tool does not guarantee alignment.

 

Feeler gauges will do the job centering the Nowlin tool before you lock it down.  Way better then the Brownell's centering block that has to be fit first.  The Nowlin tool is way better that the POS Brownell's Barrel holding tool.  I have all the Brownell's crap.  That why I know it is junk.  Nowlin and Chambers and feeler gauges is a MUCH better way to go.  This assumes you do not have a mill and the Weigand Barrel Fitting Fixture.

[ltdmstr]

I agree on the Brownells stuff.  A lot of their 1911 tools are poor copies of the originals.  And I agree you can make do without the alignment block.  But, it's a useful thing to have if you can find one.  I still have all the old stuff, but now use a Clausing mill and Weigand barrel fixture.  You can get good results either way if you know what you're doing.

[Cam73]

Thank you for the responses, lots of info here to think about.

 

I fit the barrel in this order (more or less):

-Installed the Nowlin fixture into the barrel and into the slide. Tool fit was very tight in both the barrel and slide.

-Advanced the barrel until the hood almost made contact with the slide

-Measured for hood width removal using the Weigand method on YT and his worksheet. Measured for hood length using groove calipers. 

-Filed the right side to dimension then the left side to dimension. Check fit it many many times using the Nowlin tool for alignment along the way

-Filed the hood to length while also having to reduce the muzzle end of the barrel to allow it to drop in and out of lock up

-Measured upper lug engagement and spent forever trying to figure out why I wasn't getting good contact in the upper barrel lugs, even with hammer taps. Ended up having to slowly remove material from the OD of the barrel, starting 1/2" back from the muzzle to eliminate the springing.

 

I don't remember how far undersized the hood width is off hand, I'll get that number later. The hood length is about .003" short. I thought I was fighting length but in reality it was a combination of things. By the time I figured it out, I was short. The fit of the Nowlin tool was so tight in the barrel (had to stone it) and recoil spring tunnel, I didn't question alignment issues at the time.

 

There was a pretty nasty step in the slide stop pin hole on the right side of the frame. It took some work to get the slide stop pin through both sides of the frame without issue. I haven't attempted to check it the slide stop pin bore against any other critical surfaces for perpendicularity or parallelism, but combined with the awesome (not) slide/barrel fit, I wouldn't be surprised if there are compounding issues. I'm going to take a better look at the contact pattern this afternoon. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Cam73

[Cam73]

Update-

I've cut with the .193" cutter to the point where the thumb safety will engage and hand worked the lower lugs slightly, allowing the barrel to lock up firmly on the slide stop pin. As previously mentioned, there was some vertical play in the slide/frame fit so I shimmed the slide up during cutting to remove the play. The thought was I can always cut more later but I wanted to avoid a condition where I could not get a solid lock-up as the result of the vertical play.  When using the .193" cutter, it never fully made contact with the tips of lower lugs.

 

Observations:

-A #3 link is too short, but its all I have on hand currently. I think a 3.5 or 4 will do it.

-I placed a gage pin through the barrel link, in place of the link pin and the slide stop through the link. I pressed the slide stop all the way into the lower lug cut and measured outside of slide stop to outside of gage pin then subtracted 1/2 the OD of each. I came up with .024" of flat (quite a bit less than the numbers discussed earlier in this thread). The link is not very far past vertical when the slide stop pin is pressed against the lower lug cut. 

-The slide is not quite flush with the front of the frame when the barrel is locked up on the slide stop pin.

-The start of the disconnector slot just clears the hole in the frame when the barrel is locked up on the slide stop pin. If the disconnector were to be installed, it would have a serious bias to the front of the slot.

-The rear of the disconnector rail is flush with the back of the frame when locked up on the slide stop pin.

-There is definitely some un-even contact going on. I think it is the combination of the barrel hood fit and the step in the slide stop pin hole. 

 

Here is the contact pattern. Certainly not passing the Chambers sharpie test...

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Cam73