You Make The Call (or Raise Or Fold)

[ErikW]

Start position: four poker chips in hand, seated with elbows on table, loaded gun on table.

Procedure: engage all targets and deposit four poker chips in bucket before the last shot.

Numerous shooters used target patching tape to tape the poker chips together in some way or another. Examples include "hockey puck" and "leash."

What's the call as an RO? (Quote rule and language.) As a shooter?

[Merlin Orr]

What did the written course description say?

[ima45dv8]

Without knowing more about what the WSB said, 4.5.1 might apply --

"The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including targets, target stands and target activators). Violations may incur one procedural penalty per occurance at the discretion of the Range Officer." [Bold emphasis added]

I guess it would depend on the opinion of the RO or RM, whether taping the 4 props together to become one prop is interference. If so, the shooter could be awarded a procedural.

...Mark

Edited November 28, 2005 by ima45dv8

[driver8M3]

the RO should have been aware of what they were doing before they started the stage...and whether or not it would be allowed.

[Nik Habicht]

Club Match: A smack to the back of the head, followed by a long lecture on how hard the design/set-up crew works to create interesting stages.......

At a Sectional/Area/Nats: LAMR, when the shooter's done that, the RO hands him four loose chips. If the competitor reaches for tape, either say no, or start the timer.....

(No --- the answer is really to say "No.")

[wide45]

Why not just use a hockey puck in the first place. Where you trying to introduce a non-shooting problem?

[ErikW]

ima45dv8, that's what I came up with after consulting the rulebook. Some argue taping the chips is not interfering with the props. I wonder if they would argue that using a bag is not interfering.

Really the RO shouldn't start the shooter who has interfered with the props. But once a squad has gone through with some getting away with it, it's all FUBAR. This is a danger of not having dedicated ROs on a stage.

[Flexmoney]

I was pretty adamant about a similar type of call. The question came up here on the forum about proping the gun up with a mag on a table start.

It is my strong opinion that a shooter cannot ad props to a stage.

If some did, and some didn't (and it changed the stage), then the stage should be tossed. (Unless the WSB can be changed in time to eliminate the advantage of those that had gone before.)

[h4444]

On the question of Raise or Fold,,,,if you have position come back over the top so he can't draw to a hand and will have to lay it down......

Oh,,,,wait, we're not really talkin' poker afterall,,,,,

I think Nik has it right,,,,smack on the back of the head,,,,little common sense goes a long way.

H4444

[Jim Norman]

The thing that I like about shooting USPSA is that we get to solve the problem, the thing I hate about USPSA is the people that go over the line by doing things like taping the chips together or in the case of a "Standing behind the table" start decide that as long as one foot is behind the table, that that is OK, that the rest of the body can be next to the table so long as they are not in front of a line drawn along the rear of the table.

Range Lawyers are the problem. There is a design and an OBVIOUS INTENT. Don't look for the loophole. Shoot the darned COF like it was intended. Find your own way through the COF, YES! Stand how you like, or if it is a sitting start, by all means sit on the edge of the chair and put your hands on your knees to help you rise, unless the WSB says otherwise, but don't carry it too far.

Most of the time these problems occur at the local level with an embedded RO. At a higher level match, you are unlikely to see this since there is supposedly a standard that can be and is enforced.

In essence, I agree with Nik, a sharp smack to the back of the head, and knowin Nik, I'd rather not make him mad! His smack across the backof the head just may put you out of the running for finishing the match that day!

[michaels]

I washed the four poker chips and then decided that to keep from injesting them, I'd put a small piece of tape around them. Yeah I carried them in the mouth till I got to the bucket and it was a good shot right into the bucket...geez it was the only good shot I made all day anyway...

Nothing in the course description forbid what I did, I read it over a couple of times and it looked ok, I came to shoot, not play poker...

michaels

[driver8M3]

I washed the four poker chips and then decided that to keep from injesting them, I'd put a small piece of tape around them. Yeah I carried them in the mouth till I got to the bucket and it was a good shot right into the bucket...geez it was the only good shot I made all day anyway...

in the mouth = OK.

taping them together = procedural (or not starting you).

Edited December 6, 2005 by driver8M3

[johnhurd]

Yeah I carried them in the mouth till I got to the bucket

Then they better have a unmouthed (is that a word) set of chips when I shoot or throw the COF out, I don't even know you well enough to swap spit wid ya. I didn't pay a entry fee to catch at the very least your cold................ I can hear my momma now "spit that out you don't know where his mouth has been"

[Rikarin]

after I shot oh-my-god-this-is-so-hard area 2 stages, I appreciate difficult stages at club matches more. I am even planning to help set up stages once I get back (I'm in phoenix now) with lots of swingers.

I did taped even I agreed with Erik since that was the squad's majority opinion. But, from little experience I helped set up stages, it's so discouraing setting up stages only to found some shooter find the loophole and make it easy. Myabe I should help writing the discription since I have degree in law!!!!!

Edited December 6, 2005 by Rikarin

[ima45dv8]

It seems clear to me that the chips were props and that makes 4.5.1 the governing rule. What the shooter does with them after the start signal is given is their business - in their mouth, in their pocket, down the front of their shirt. That's freestyle (although I share the concerns about oral hygiene).

I would even encourage them to stop after the start signal and tape them together if that's what they wanted to do. It would make for a poor time on the stage but would be a great story to tell later.

I hope this doesn't this mean we're going to have to add a definition for "Props" to the glosssary section of the rulebook.

[iweiny]

Well since this was my stage I suppose I should chime in...

Personally the original start position I came up with was the four chips on the table spaced out. This would have prevented the situation being discussed. However, I was informed that the problem then becomes one of "pick up poker chips" NOT one of shooting. I agreed with this. So I changed it to be 4 chips in your hand.

The official description read as follows:

Start Position: Seated in chair. Elbows on table with poker chips in hand. Gun on table loaded per rule 8.1.1 and 8.1.2.

Stage Procedure: Upon start signal engage targets as visible. There are 4 poker "chips". All 4 chips must be placed in bucket 1 prior to the last shot fired. Failure to place all chips in the bucket will result in 1 procedural penalty.

I used this start position at 2 of our local matches (2 different clubs). The stages turned out to be quite different but it was interesting to see how many solutions there were to this particular problem. However, rule book asside, I was pretty dissapointed with the taping of the chips (chalk this one up to stage designer -- lesson learned).

Anyway, I know some might think this is a pretty stupid start position but think about it. Many decided to carry the chips in their shooting grip. I did this at one of the matches. I missed both of my shots on the 1st target as my grip was just a tiny bit off. Some chose to carry them in their mouth. One of those people however forgot to drop them in the bucket!!! We all had a pretty good laugh about that one. Another solution was to toss them in your pocket. This eliminated a shooting hinderance but fishing them out of your pocket took time. Finaly, the second time I started this way I decided to set the chips down on the table, shoot the first array and then pick them back up. This worked well except for the slight delay as I just about jammed 4 poker chips into my mag well during my first reload!!!

But the one mistake which I feel pretty bad about considering the taping of the chips was: The stage description specifically said that all 4 chips must be in the bucket prior to the last shot fired. One of our squad mates missed the bucket and the chips scattered to the ground. Now from a "gamer" standpoint the thing to have done was to leave the chips and take the penalty. (I agree with this BTW considering the situation and the time required to pick up the chips.) What really sucks is he decided to pick up the chips. However, he missed one! We assesed him a penalty.

After the match was over I felt pretty bad for giving him the penalty when I saw what other sqads had done.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. I have learned my lesson as a stage designer. I am sorry it had to be at the expense of other shooters. I can see where some of the responsibility for the unfairness is my fault for not specifically saying that was illegal. I suppose another way to have said the start position was "4 free chips, in hand." I don't know. What does "free" mean? Perhaps "loose" chips would have been the word?

Sorry,

Ira

Edited December 6, 2005 by iweiny

[ima45dv8]

The more I think about this, I can't recall ever having to carry more than one items with me after the start of a stage. We've likely all seen the bank bag-type scenarios where you start with the bag and have to deposit it somewhere down the line, but 4 props is one I haven't encountered.

For safety and fairness sake, your decision not to use them the same way again seems like a good idea. (*As I read your post I thought you were going to say he bent over to retrieve the spilled chips and swept himself or broke the 180!)

Edited December 6, 2005 by ima45dv8

[iweiny]

For safety and fairness sake, your decision not to use them the same way again seems like a good idea. (*As I read your post I thought you were going to say he bent over to retrieve the spilled chips and swept himself or broke the 180!)

Yea, that is a good point. And not to hijac this thread too much, I just wanted to make it something different. It does seem we always have 1 thing to carry...

Thanks,

Ira

[chuckbradley]

I dont see a problem at all with the stage except I would have assessed a penalty for each chip not in t he bucket. I dont have the distances of targets, number of targets or any other info but most likely with just one penalty it would be a wash to just forget about the chips and take the penalty, making it 4 penalties would fix that. Since it is 4 different props and 4 different items I believe you can do that. Were there so many far targets that shooting strong hand was out of the question?

One way to keep anybody from changing the props is to make them pick the chips up off the table. No problem with stacking them. This puts the prep of the prop on the RO not the shooter.

AS far as putting things in your mouth. For the sake of the health of shooters we need to disallow any placement of props in ones mouth. Not only does it affect the shooter who puts it in his mouth but the others who have to hold the item that was in their mouth as well. And yes I have done it before. One Stage that sticks in my mind was a stage at the Golden Gate Championship, back in 97?, where you had to carry a test tube through the stage and deposit it at the end of the stage. It was a vile of Elvis's DNA I think. They had 3 test tubes so the ondeck shooters could wash the test tubes since everybody held them in their mouth. I would have felt better if we had some alchohol to dip them in. The material like a test tube could wash easy but pourous materials would be difficult.

[BritinUSA]

At the Dark House stages at Nationals they always said that the flashlight could not be put in the mouth.

There should be a written policy about 'infecting' props, it's just un-hygienic.

[chuckbradley]

At the Dark House stages at Nationals they always said that the flashlight could not be put in the mouth.

There should be a written policy about 'infecting' props, it's just un-hygienic.

At Area 5 this year we had a stage that had a key that you had to carry to the end to open the window. There were only 8 shots that you had to take witht he key in hand. We also included in the course description that you could not put it in your mouth. Only problem we had was the key swung up in front of one shooters gun and he shot the cable in half. He wanted a reshoot. I couldnt justify it, plus he was a good friend and didnt want to appear to be a conflict of interest. Told him he could arbitrate it if he wished but it was his responsibility to manage the prop. He didnt arbitrate it.

[Greg Jones]

Hey Chuck, good talking with you earlier today. I'm glad you mentioned the stage with the key at the Area 5 match. It was a fun stage to shoot, and even more fun to watch and listen to the other shooters as they tackled what to do with the key!

[Flexmoney]

Ira,

I am with Chuck. I think the stage was fine. The taping of the chips isn't a stage design issue as much as it is an issue of the application of the rules. It sure sounds like the shooter was allowed to modifiy the course of fire (tape).

If you have roaming RO's, then more tweaking might be in order (to ensure that all the RO's are applying the rules correctly).

Also, like Chuck mentioned, with the penalty being one procedural...a shooter might want to look at the option of just leaving the chips and shooting the stage. But, that may or may not be an option that you want to leave in there.