A novice question about recoil control

[Frito]

I'm sure this question have been asked and discussed many times on this board, but I guess what I've found were not specific to the question I have in mind or pertaining to my personal experience.  However I'll be gladly receiving any link for redirection if it has been addressed.

 

Obviously recoil management is one of the top topics and broadly discussed to that almost anywhere I searched on web it touched on this subject.  In summary what appeared to me the recoil seems to be best managed through wrist locking, forearm effort through applying torque to gripping (Vogel et al), plus stance depending on the size and strength of the person.  Albeit the advice is very generic and abstract, I've been taught and figured a specific method in gripping to counter the recoil.  Despite the gripping is generally aligned with 60/40 or 70/30 between support hand and strong hand, the method specifically requires the strong hand pinky finger to engage for several purpose, 1. counter the muzzle uplifting during recoil, 2. somehow it's the only way to enable the wrist locking on the strong hand in my experience.  3. the natural force of pinky will also apply a torque that force the beaver as high as possible which also helps recoil control;

 

On the support hand side, the thumb is actually not encouraged to apply force on the frame, neither up or down.  This is in contrary of many custom frame seen stippled in the area of where support hand thumb rest (implying force), or even in open gun what some would mount a panel angled purposely for support hand thumb to press down. 

 

While this method seems to be working and effective in my experience I also understand my novice experience is far from being proven for the correct method especially I've not heard of it in expert opinions or even have seen counter evidence (e.g. thumb rest stippling).  Would anyone on this board mind to offer advice before I really invest in efforts to reinforce the muscle memory?  Many thanks.

[Flea]

I've read your question but I'm not 100% clear what exactly you are asking. If you are asking what is the "proper" way to deal with recoil, then this is what I've settled on in my journey. And I am far, far from an expert. I will assume you are using the correct stance, posture and hand positions on the gun.

 

1. No one is stopping recoil, you are managing recoil.

2. Your firing hand should grip the gun just enough so it doesn't move around in your hand. This way you maximize your ability to run the trigger faster.

3. Your support hand should basically grip the gun as hard as you can but you don't want to grip so hard that the gun is shaking in your hand. You probably think you are gripping hard, but it's still probably not enough.

4. Lock both wrists evenly. Uneven locking will lead to the gun recoiling towards the side with less wrist lock.

5. Your hands and wrists should do all of the work, not your arms, shoulders, pecs, etc.

 

Join Practical Shooting Training Group.

[Blackstone45]

I'm by no means a high level shooter, but I follow the school of "grip very hard with support hand and keep a relaxed grip in the firing hand".

 

I know what you mean about applying some pressure with the firing hand pinky to help lock the firing hand wrist. I do that too but only when shooting one-handed. If two handed, my firing hand remains neutral and relaxed.

[SGT_Schultz]

7 hours ago, Frito said:

 In summary what appeared to me the recoil seems to be best managed through wrist locking, forearm effort through applying torque to gripping (Vogel et al), plus stance depending on the size and strength of the person. 

 

 

Vogel's grip works for Bob Vogel and a few other people who have his hand size and strength

 

I can lock my wrists with no effort from my strong hand ring and pinky fingers.  The muscles in my forearms are a hell of a lot stronger than the muscles in my fingers.

 

The more I learn about grip the less dogmatic I become.

 

More raw strength in your fingers, wrist, and forearm muscles is more better.

[StefVanHauwe]

Grip is very individual and dependent on many different parameters (ex: overall built, size of hands, grip strength, type/size of gun, ammo used, etc and technique) . A good drill to test whether you have a good position, draw, GRIP and recoil control is the Bill drill (of which there are many variations - I'm fond of the "classic" Bill drill), preferebly filmed to analyze every movement and your reults (time/grouping). 

 

“Grip Training for Handgunners” with context from GM Ron Avery: https://ironmind.com/export/sites/ironmind/.galleries/pdfs/ShootersGuideBooklet_091219.pdf

Also see these videos:

 

- Ron Avery - Grip Strength Training - Grip Strength: 

 

 

- Charlie Perez on grip strength: 

 

[MountainMan]

I'm a B class USPSA shooter, but I shoot mostly IDPA these days and in IDPA I am a two gun Master, and I've been working on my shooting fairly diligently for 10 years (but not consistently since I work, have a family, etc).  I've taken lessons from 3 world champions in groups or personally (Leatham (group twice), Vogel (group) and Frangoulis (personal lessons many times). I don't have strong hands or wrists, and I've been struggling with recoil management as much as any other thing. Each of them has a different take on grip and recoil management and I, too, have dispensed with dogma. It's like batting styles of professional baseball players. Great variation in style, but the are all very similar in performance. Each must play to their anatomy, strengths, weaknesses, etc differently to achieve their outcome.

 

I have found that (perhaps b/c my hands are small and relatively weak) that engaging my lats and not hunching my traps helps considerably with consistent return of the sights between shots. Perhaps it's a crutch, I dunno. As a result I've been told I look like I'm shooting more 'casually' (shoulders down) than when I used to bunch up my shoulders and deltoids. It seemed to reduce the recoil transmission to my head, also, making shooting smoother.  my scores are better this way. It required me to adjust the ergonomics of my draw and forearm angles a bit (I'm bringing the gun up more and not dipping my head forward and down as before), but it works...it is now natural, after 20-30k rounds of careful practice to train this reflex.

 

I've worked on variations of grip technique endlessly, and still can't get my sights to track perfectly straight up and down consistently. I"m right handed and I have spent thousands of rounds experimenting with technique, and my most consistent return is with a grip roughly 70/30 left/right strength, and yet the sights still rise in a short loop toward the right and come back nice and reliably each time. But not straight up and down. I've asked one of the above GMs and he shrugged and said his track up and down but that isn't the goal, that's just his technique to achieve his goal (of rapid return of sights to the original index, resulting in the accumulation of more trophies). He suggested I not sweat it that much since I have other things that are now limiting my improvement, like entries/exits, and reloads!  I'm never winning a sanctioned match at my age and skill level, and that's not any goal anyway. I just need to feel like I'm getting a bit better in something over time.

 

I'd like to know if some of you Masters and GMs have similar observations. Is a straight up/down track of your sights your goal or is it more of a non-imperative consequence of your technique.  I guess by standards of performance, it's how fast and consistently the sights return to the original index that matters, not whether there is a little curve to the left or right as it rises....but I keep hearing Enos's comments about the holy grail 'neutral grip' concept in my head.

 

I will add that for new shooters, you should experiment with different recoil springs. If your spring is unnecessarily strong, it will cause the slide to dip down when it returns to battery, and that contributes to the problem of perceived recoil control. I noticed a big improvement when I ranged to a spring that consistently cycled the gun (but just barely) compared to a stock factory spring.

 

Thanks

 

[Cuz]

You should buy Brian’s book and read it.  It will answer many questions and get you started in the right direction. 
 

 

[kleite93]

It’s actually quite simple.  Crush with your left hand as hard as you can, apply about 50-60% of that pressure with your strong hand mainly in your ring and pinky finger to create a wrist “lock”.  Your recoil control will be 75% that grip, and then the rest is stance (posture leaning forward as to not allow your body/back to rock during recoil) and using your back muscles as well.