Crossover And Roll

[dirtypool40]

Guys,

Some guys on another thread PM'd me and asked me to explain what I was rambling about. I know this has been covered to death, but here's the technique and description that are working for me.

I spun this off from the thread about how TJ's class made me dizzy with all the movement drills I couldn't digest. I thought I could shoot but that guy....he just KNOWS stuff.

Anyway, I'm on a Mac - in - trash so I can't find a way to cut and paste the loooong pm I sent explaining all this movement stuff.

I figured to open this thread and then C&P the looong theory tomorrow, on a real computer. I've never seen it laid out like this, so simple that even I could understand it, so I hope it helps somebody else.

The short version:

Moving out - Cross step out of a position. IE Moving to your right step with your left foot.

Moving in - "sneak" or "roll" into the position with the trailing foot. IE Moving to the right enter the box with the left foot first.

Moving forward - lunging cross step. For a right handed, left foot forward shooter, leave the left foot planted, lean in, knee out in front of ankle so you can drive through, pick up and step with the right foot.

That's the "what to do" the "how's" and "why I think it works", I'll clean up tomorrow.

Once I get the longer version here, PLEASE poke holes, ask questions, make sure you understand, and that I have a way to explain it. I am really trying to learn this and now that I sort of understand it, I want to make sure it's right and that I can explain it.

Edited January 31, 2006 by dirtypool40

[XRe]

This thread is useless without.... video Actually, these are good descriptions - I just don't understand the lunging cross step bit - a diagram/picture/video would be sweet

[dirtypool40]

Dave, I mean you stretch out like you are performing a lunge.

Take your normal start to move out stance. (Start in box A move to B and shoot).

The only way I could get a decent first step, stepping through with the back foot was to lean WAY forward. Knee out in front of ankle so all I do is pick up the back foot, and drive with the front leg.

Make better sense???

[Al Capizzo]

Thats interesting. I think Max and Travis teach when moving forward to "launch" yourself forward with the trailing leg.

I know when starting from a "heals touching a board" kind of start, Max and Blake drop their strong side foot back and spring off of that to move forward.

Al

Wait a minute, I guess that is "lunging".

[eric nielsen]

Here's the full version since E.S. is paste-challenged for the moment. For clarity, when he says "sneak the ___ foot in" that is the 2nd foot [to finish] entering a position. Other times he says "sneak on the last 3 steps coming in" or similar and that means to get low to the ground, chop the step size, and STAY low as you commence shooting.

If you have the Burkett book or his dvds, it's the same foot sequence MB teaches for entering a box. As for "leaving" - until E.S. tested it & pointed out the distances, I was unaware of the big difference. His movement at the Cowboy Action range must've been really aggressive to get an extra 3ft of distance, myself, I find an advantage of about 15" to 24" no matter how many steps are taken. 3 steps starting with a trailing-leg crossover is 24" further along than 3 steps that start out stretching out with the lead leg. 4 steps crossing is further along than 4 steps stretching, etc. EN

E.S. wrote:

We'll shoot a field course moving forward to a port and then to the right, like the majority of our courses are anyway.

This is all for a right handed, left foot forward shooter.

Lean forward getting weight on your front knee, knee out in front of your ankle. This is your drive leg and you need to be "out front" in order to get going early. At the beep draw the gun then step through with your right foot. Left foot doesn't move first. It feels slow but in 10 feet of movement to a first shot it was consistently .20 sec faster for me.

Get to the first position and "roll" in, that means slow down three steps out, mount the gun one step out and step in right foot first, engaging the array as the left foot clears the ground (in case it was a box, you don't want to shoot while "out"). Land left foot softly to finish normal stance. GOING LEFT AND FORWARD LAND RIGHT FOOT FIRST, GOING TO THE RIGHT ENTER LEFT FOOT FIRST. Backwards it depends which way you are going to turn when you get there, like how you carry the gun for running backwards.

I used to rush to the box and almost jump in, jamming that right foot down and trying to shoot and stand up as I rocked back to the left. "Rolling" into the box left foot first lets you enter softer, and more stable, which means less sight disturbance and YOU ARE SHOOTING EARLIER EVERY POSITION.

We're moving out to the right, so we probably shot the array right to left to get the weight shift. When you are ready to move, keep the right foot planted and "cross over" with the left foot. Again it feels slower than that quick short right foot step, but crossing over moves you about three feet further in your first step than the other way. "CROSSING OVER" YOU ARE ALWAYS ABOUT THREE FEET OR "A STEP AHEAD" OUT OF EVERY SHOOTING POSITION. At .20 sec per step, you can see how it adds up.

FIRST STEP LATERALLY IS ALWAYS A CROSSOVER STEP.

Now haul ass to the next position, slow down three before, mount the gun one before, "sneak" or "roll" into the box LEFT foot first, engaging the array as the right foot clears the ground. Land right foot softly to complete normal stance.

Same foot does all the entering and crossing over. IE: Moving to the Right you cross step with the left and sneak in [to finish] with the right.

IT'S ALWAYS THE "OTHER" FOOT.

Stay low throughout. It wears my legs out but it is one of the big things TJ pointed out. If you move low, stay low to shoot, instead of up and down and up and down. It takes time to change height before each move and you shoot slower when you are trying to smoothly stand up during an array.

I hope this made some kind of sense. PLEASE ask questions and make me explain it until it clicks for you. I am trying to present this like I am teaching it, and with some luck, some day I will.

I like this because I understand it and it makes sense in the way it works. FOR ME it's much easier and smoother, and the timer says it's the way.....again, maybe only for me, but I am happy, I feel like a piece just fell into place.

Yes, it'll be a while before it's an unconscious part of my game, but I think I'm on the right track.

For me I get a sense of rolling through a course, like a heavy water balloon or something. I feel "slidy" but controlled.

All I did was practice at Weewahootee three times and it clicked; This was IT.

Looking forward to comments and feedback.

Edited November 7, 2005 by eric nielsen

[XRe]

Make better sense???

Yup

Yeah, the "sneak/roll" is the same thing Burkett talks about - it works out pretty nicely. Here's some discussion....

I've only really been "instructed" on box/barricade entry - how do you apply this to "shooting areas"? I know what I've been doing, but... this is about discussion, right? Do you pick a spot outside the the area you want to set up towards, and do the same thing, or?? A lot of shooting areas don't really have room for more than a step or three in between shooting positions. What do you do then? With exit, it was always "lean and haul ass" or "fall out and haul ass". This is an interesting new thing to try.

Since I've been back, my movement skills are obviously rusty. It took me a couple of matches to remember how things work, and then I've been working on my shooting fundamentals. Just recently, I've picked up on the need to rehash movement stuff - so this comes at a great time for me. I've been playing with the T_T/MM/Jake "launch" technique, as well. I figured there's no reason not to play with anything I can, right now Time to get out the stopwatch, and start doing different things. I've never actually done that assessment, before, so I imagine it'll be enlightening.

I need a GM to start kicking my ass around the practice range, I think....

Edited November 7, 2005 by XRe

[dirtypool40]

Dave

good points. Someone made the observation that ports and vision barrier windows are really just boxes stood up. That's how I deal with them.

My movement style is still in it's infance but I would get in the position and see where I wanted to be, and then pick some visual clues so I could treat it like a box....step riiiiiight here.

Where it says in EricN's post that "I shot this three times at Weewahootee" that's on a cowtown, using doors and windows. The nice thing about those kind of positions is that there are no foot faults. The bad thing is it's harder to be precise.

Some tight positions it may be better to step with the lead foot, where you don't want or need that much movement, or where the timing is such that you need a small first step to make it workon the other end. I"m still working on all this.

As I said in the outset, I'm sure there's nothing new under the sun, but this is just a way of thinking about it that works for me. I'm not trying to take credit for it.

Hope that helped....

[Clay1]

Great discussion. I have studied the Matt B DVDs and started this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...topic=25498&hl= and it really helps to go over this stuff from time to time. Thanks for a nice recap.

I'm just thinking out loud, but if I had to choose two of the things that people need to work on the most in their training it would probably be mental training and movement. So many times we focus on things like reloads and draws but training the mental / movement excercises will probably give better results on field courses for people that have shot for a little while. Just my opinion.

[ima45dv8]

I'm just thinking out loud, but if I had to choose two of the things that people need to work on the most in their training it would probably be mental training and movement. So many times we focus on things like reloads and draws but training the mental / movement excercises will probably give better results on field courses for people that have shot for a little while. Just my opinion.

Clay, I couldn't agree more. I did just that recently and it was the best money I've spent since starting this sport.

...Mark

[eric nielsen]

Couple of good links there.

One thing struck me with DP40's post: We tend learn a technique after "hearing that it's faster" and then spend all sorts of effort to sharpen that technique, without ever testing it against the clock. Twenty-something years ago lots of shooters were doing that with the Weaver stance, "doubletaps" and so on, but these young guys Brian and Rob decided they wanted proof - what's the best way, let's find out.

DP did that same thing. It's tough - either running with stopwatch in your hands or setting par times with your match gun & guessing how close to the par you got after running 10 steps - those drills are exhausting & for sure your legs will feel like c**p the next day.

I used to leave positions the way DP describes. Somehow went away from it, without ever proving which way is better and why. When I did cross-step out of positions I found that as you pick up the trailing leg to cross it over, it helps move everything if you let your lead leg bend WAY down. Literally get 1' shorter as you step out. Try turning that lead-leg knee out toward your direction of movement & maybe it'll work for you.

Edited November 8, 2005 by eric nielsen

[XRe]

We tend learn a technique after "hearing that it's faster" and then spend all sorts of effort to sharpen that technique, without ever testing it against the clock.

When we begin, it's often best to simply listen to what the consensus is on what works best and strive to do that for a while. This gives you a base to work from, and a set of skills to develop while you learn the game. It's very easy to get complacent in this, though. I'm as guilty of it as anyone else.

You're absolutely right - a lot of times, we do things because we *think* they're the best. But... we don't know. Maku Mozo!! Until you clock it or otherwise determine what's what in an empirical, objective fashion, you don't know, and you're just fooling yourself. Quite likely, you'll discover that it's worthwhile to practice several techniques, and have them all in the bag for different situations, though one or two will probably prove superior for almost all things.

A couple of other things that I haven't really done much in the past - periodic re-evaluation, and sharpening of a technique that initially appears inferior to see if, after practice, it really shines. All of that requires real work, and none of it is as much fun as burning ammo, but... It does pay off....

[dirtypool40]

The things I learned I was doing wrong at TJ's class are LEGION!!!!

(I listed them on separate lines as they are all individual boo boos I was making).

Among them;

stepping back to go forward.

Coming into the box on the wrong foot,

Mounting the gun late

Then standing up as I shot

then crouching down again as I started to move.

Leaving on the wrong foot.

I left that course wondering how in the hell I ever got an "M" card!!!

And you wonder how I ended up in the "paralysis through analysis" mode for three months?

EricN kinda touches on this in a roundabout way. Start low, stay low, move low, shoot low. then you don't waste time going up and down and your legs stay bent which is more powerful for pushing off.

[Clay1]

Nice link Mark, glad that things are working out for you. I still have a long way to go. Shot two matches this past weekend. One IDPA and one USPSA. Shot faster and more accurately than in a while, still have some work to do (one stage proved that), but I didn't dwell on the negative and moved past it and shot well on the next few stages. That for me was a nice victory in itself. I keep trying to replay the positives.

Was talking with a guy at yesterday's shoot. Would love to hire Max and Travis for a training class next year. Rounds down range can move you ahead in the game if you are practicing the right things, but there is nothing like first hand training.

Thanks again DP for bringing this topic up - wonderful topic.

[eric nielsen]

Spent an hour with just my hands, a stopwatch, and 2 positions 6 paces apart. Crossing over puts me a step ahead. Like those overlapping shooter videos Saul makes, where the shooters are in a tie but then one just jumps ahead by .3 seconds.

Sometimes a particular distance falls a half-step too long/ too short for the crossing-into a box. So it's always a good thing to be flexible & be able to cross into a position or stretch the lead leg into a position as the situation calls for. That's another step-saver right there.

One thing to look for when you arrive in a position is: where is your NPA? In practice, when you plant your feet, take a second to close your eyes & see where your index wants to settle. If that NPA is far far away from your first target you can shoot some really bad shots.

Edited November 8, 2005 by eric nielsen

[XRe]

If that NPA is far far away from your first target you can shoot some really bad shots.

I can do that with my NPA dead on the target.... One thing Burkett also talks about position entry, which seems to make sense, is to also look at where you're going to start shooting, and where you're going to exit. If the setup would be very awkward on the first or easiest target in the array, or you're going to exit the position in the opposite direction you just entered from - or both - it sometimes makes sense to angle slightly behind the position and sort of arc into it. This *can* add an extra step to your path, but can also result in a quicker first shot on the targets, faster engagement of the array, and quicker exit from position. In other words, you end up entering the position more forward to backward, and then you use the setup in the position as the "stop" to change your motion in the other direction (which you have to do anyway).

I don't know if that makes sense,but...

[dirtypool40]

Dave and EricN you are both making good points.

I like the "sneak" or "roll in" method in this respect too; you come in softer under better control and can adjust things better than jumping in with a jolt then trying to fire aimed shots.

I guess what I an happiest about is that right or wrong I finally have a system I'm going to work on.

Edited November 9, 2005 by dirtypool40

[kamakiri]

I'm curious... In your class with TJ, did he recommend entering every box with the "sneak and roll" you describe?

I took a class with him last year, and although he definitely advised "sneaking" into a box in the sense of arriving smoothly and softly, he suggested that the best technique was to step into the box with the strong side leg first. I.e., if you're a right handed shooter, then when moving left you'd do a "roll" as described above (cross-step with rt foot into box first), but when moving right you'd step in with the lead foot (again, the rt) first. This is contrary to what Burkett teaches (always do the roll), as y'all know. Evidently there's no one best way that all the top guns use.

I think there will probably be times when both techniques are necessary. If you're moving between two boxes that are close together, there will probably be an optimum number of steps you'd take in covering the distance, and it might well be the case that if you're too set on both exiting and entering in a certain way you'll need to shorten/stretch your steps awkwardly to do so, and it would make more sense to either exit or enter with the "wrong" foot. My suspicion (though I can't offer hard evidence yet) is that it's more important to have a consistant exiting technique, and simply modify the entering technique as appropriate to the situation, emphasizing smoothness ("sneeking").

I'm curious to experiment with the forward lunge-step mentioned above. My usual practice is to launch from the rear leg. I use my left (I'm right-handed), partly based on a background in Kendo and partly on practice with a buddy of mine who's good at explosive movement and who's watched top major league baseball base-stealers. Going by what the timer said, that seemed to work best for us. Might be something like what Max and TT teach.

[dirtypool40]

Well, Todd had me pretty confused so, what I perceived and what he meant to teach may be two very different things.

I think he wanted us entering the box both directions on the same foot. I try to enter on the trailing foot, but as you point out, there are times when both are needed.

For me, for smoothness, I am trying to learn to enter on the trailing foot and "sneak" in to the position if the course allows it.

As to quickness, which is different from speed, using your marital arts analogy, think about a front kick.

A quick front snap kick can be so fast it's near impossible to react to in time, the "lunging" front kick from the rear leg cover's a whole lot more ground and is more powerful. Yes, stepping with the leading leg (ie not crossing over) is a quicker move, but for me at least, the crossover makes this up by covering more ground.

Edited November 14, 2005 by dirtypool40

[Flexmoney]

This thread needs pictures.

[davidball]

Like those overlapping shooter videos Saul makes, where the shooters are in a tie but then one just jumps ahead by .3 seconds.

Eric, which videos are these? Titles? I looked over Saul's site but couldn't tell which ones might contain the overlapping stuff.

[AWLAZS]

They are listed under the heading FUN STUFF

[davidball]

They are listed under the heading FUN STUFF

Thanks . . . found 'em!

[dirtypool40]

BTT< I had a great conversation with Erik Lund the other night about movement, and his class.

It seems like I may have stumbled onto a small part of what he teaches, but WOW has this guy done some research and analysis. I was impressed and felt like I should have been paying for IPSC's first 1-900 #.

Impressive stuff, sir, I hope you come teach in my area, or I get to squad with you at least.

[Sean Gaines]

BTT< I had a great conversation with Erik Lund the other night about movement, and his class.

It seems like I may have stumbled onto a small part of what he teaches, but WOW has this guy done some research and analysis. I was impressed and felt like I should have been paying for IPSC's first 1-900 #.

Impressive stuff, sir, I hope you come teach in my area, or I get to squad with you at least.

You Stumbled. No pun intended

[XRe]

BTT< I had a great conversation with Erik Lund the other night about movement, and his class.

Only once a year?? Come on, Erik!