So's....make The Call

[solaritx]

Following a discussion by multiple "senior" SO's with Regional, State and National SO experience, there seems to be a need for a rule clarification from IDPA.

The clarification concerns "dropped ammo/magazine".

Here is the scenario: Stage three, string 1 of the Classification Match. Shooter is suppose to draw and fire 2 rounds at T1-T3 around one side of a barricade, do a Tactical Reload and fire 2 shots at T1-T3 from the opposite side of barricade.

While doing the reload, shooter drops his magazine. Instead of picking up the dropped magazine, he goes to his belt and loads from the spare magazine allowed on his belt. IS THIS A PROCEDURAL ERROR? Is the shooter allowed to utilize all allowed magazines or must he retrieve and utilize only the magazine he started the reload with?

1) some senior SO's feel that a PE should be assessed because the Rule Book on page 16 states " The competitor fails to retain ammo when a tac-load/RWR is specified". Their point is that this does not state that ONLY the ammo coming out of the gun must be retained, but that ALL ammo used during the reload must be retained. This is a valid point and the rule book would seem to indicate a PE is required. Page 41 under approved IDPA reloads would also indicate that a PE should be assessed as it states "Failure to properly stow a partial magazine or live ammunition after a tactical reload or reload with retention prior to firing the first shot after the reload will incur a PE". Live rounds are on the ground and this would indicate that all live ammunition was not properly stowed prior to the first shot.

2) Some senior SO's feel that a fumbled magazine is indeed a malfunction and thus under the rule book, page 41, "when clearing a malfunction, the magazine or speedloader that may have caused the malfunction does not need to be retained by the shooter and will incur no penalty". The magazine did not charge the weapon properly, and thus there was a malfunction, either mental or physical. The term "malfunction" does not specify that it must be a mechanical malfunction and thus a mental malfunction could be applied. Thus no PE would be assessed.

3) Some senior SO's feel that ANYTIME A MAGAZINE OR SPEEDLOADER that is loaded hits the ground, unless the shooter is clearing a malfunction, a PE is assessed. They utilize the Rule Book, page 16, "n. Anytime a loaded ammunition feeding device is dropped from the carrier during a course of fire" a PE is assessed. Thus they would give a PE.

4) Other Senior SO's feel that the Rule Book, page 39, under ammunition Carrier Notes applies here: "1. a three second PE will be assessed anytime a loaded ammunition feeding device is dislodged and falls out of the carrier during a CoF", and thus a PE is assessed because the magazine did fall to the ground or was dislodged.

5) Other Senior SO's feel that using the same page 39, and with the same rule "1. a three second PE will be assessed anytime a loaded ammunition feeding device is dislodged and falls out of the carrier during a CoF. Dropping a loaded ammunition feeding device during a reload is not a procedural as long as the competitor does not leave ammunition behind, and thus a PE would not be assessed. The shooter did drop a magazine during a reload, and did not leave the ammo behind.....and thus NO PE.

5 examples of the Rule Book can apply. 3 would give the PE because of the wording, two would not because of the wording. All can be equally argued as correct according to the current wording in the IDPA rulebook, each depending on the position one wants to take and the section of the rules that one wants to quote.

I have asked for a clarification from Headquarters, but thought that I would put this out to this group. Basically, the question is......if during the course of fire, the shooter drops a magazine during a reload and does not have to leave that shooting position, is it a PE if the shooter doesn't pick up the magazine prior to reengagement of targets?

Your thoughts

Garry N.

[Joe D]

I would give him a Procedural because your post is so long.

[Ted Murphy]

Following a discussion by multiple "senior" SO's with Regional, State and National SO experience, there seems to be a need for a rule clarification from IDPA.

Not really on this particular issue.

If people brain fade bad enough on the classifier you can have them reshoot the whole stage for having a "mental" malfunction. Competition Rule C11

The "malfunction" exemption for dropping magazines pertains to gun malfunctions, not screwing up. "clearing a malfunction" is the term used. You pay for your brain fades during matches but not the classifer.

Now in the case of dropping a fresh magazine during a reload, the situation is dealt with on pp 39:

Dropping a loaded ammunition feeding device during a reload is not a procedural as long as the competitor does not leave ammunition behind.

This is unfortunately tucked away under "ammunition carrier notes" but it was meant to deal with the situation at hand.

So if the magazine dropped was a fresh magazine, then it would be no procedural. If it was the partial magazine from the tactical reload, then there would be a procedural IF he fired before stowing the magazine*. This of course assumes he doesn't leave cover without retreiving the magazine first, which on the classifier would not be a problem.

(*pp41- "failure to properly stow a partial magazine or live ammunition after a Tactical Reload or Reload with Retention prior to firing the first shot after the reload, will incur a procedural penalty)

Ted

Edited November 5, 2005 by Ted Murphy

[solaritx]

I would agree with you, and as Match Director determined that no PE would be assessed.

The Scenario was the classifier stage, but shot as part of a match and thus no reshoot was allowed.

The friendly discussion was started later at our "water hole" about the rules and this situation. The other SO's that disagreed knew of the rule stated about no PE if you dropped the mag.....but they used the other areas pointed out in my first post to uphold their position that a PE should/could be assessed. Seems that one can make a case, just cut and paste your particular sentence out of the rule book to justify your position. Much more subjective then it needs to be.

Garry

[Precision40]

While doing the reload, shooter drops his magazine. Instead of picking up the dropped magazine, he goes to his belt and loads from the spare magazine allowed on his belt. IS THIS A PROCEDURAL ERROR? Yes

Failure to do an IDPA approved reload will result in a three (3)

second procedural penalty per infraction. Failure to do the reload

specified by the CoF will result in a three (3) second procedural

penalty or an FTDR. Failure to properly stow a partial magazine

or live ammunition after a Tactical Reload or Reload with

Retention prior to firing the first shot after the reload, will incur a

procedural penalty.

C 11. No shooter can re-shoot a stage or string for gun or

“mental” malfunctions except when shooting the “Classifier”

match for classification purposes. If the classifier is part of a

scored match, no re-shoots are permitted.

I copied this directly from the rulebook. It seems pretty cut-and-dry to me because if the competititor "bobbles" his reload, that's fine as long as they pick the mag back up before firing a shot.

I would give a procedural if this was the case.

Edited November 5, 2005 by Precision40

[Ted Murphy]

While doing the reload, shooter drops his magazine. Instead of picking up the dropped magazine, he goes to his belt and loads from the spare magazine allowed on his belt. IS THIS A PROCEDURAL ERROR? Yes

Precision40 (why won't people use names?)

Look on pp 39 and the quote above. That specifically pertains to bobbling a reload and dropping a magazine. No procedural.

Ted

[freeidaho]

The section from page 39 reads like this:

"4. Ammunition Carrier Notes:

1. A three (3) second procedural penalty will be assessed any time a loaded ammunition feeding device (magazine, speedloader or full moon clip) is dislodged and falls out of the carrier during a course of fire. Dropping a loaded ammunition feeding device during a reload is not a procedural as long as the competitor does not leave ammunition behind."

So that brings us to what does "leave behind" actually mean. Pick it up before "Leaving the shooting position," or pick it up before the "Next Shot?"

Are we to believe that HQ wanted us to retain a partial magazine or an empty magazine in some cases, before firing a shot, and leave a full one on the ground as long as the shooter doesn't move?

Or are we to believe that HQ wanted the bobbled magazine to be picked up before firing?

Me, I think they meant you gotta pick up the ammo before you continue shooting. It is the only explanation to me, that fits with the other rules about reloads with retention.

YMMV, Don't try this at home, Do not use in the shower, other disclaimers may apply!

Ken Reed

[Mark Perez]

Dropping a loaded ammunition feeding device during a reload is not a procedural as long as the competitor does not leave ammunition behind

we had guys using this to justify an ipsc speedload (at a final shooting position), until it was pointed out that type of reload was expressly prohibited in the rules.

As to solaritx original question , I would agree with option 1.

fwiw,

Mark

[Clay1]

I've done the USPSA speed reload at an IDPA match and picked up the mag before leaving the area but not before shooting and was not given a PE just had added time to pick up the mag. I feel that is how the rules were meant to be inforced.

If it was at the last station and you dropped the mag coming out of the gun to gain a competitive advantage a FTDR would be appropriate.

In your example he didn't do a speed reload which is not allowed in IDPA but rather dropped the mag that he was trying to reload the gun with. Then he went to his belt carrier again and got another mag. This wasn't a speed reload but a bobbled RWR.

Did he pick up the mag before leaving the station? He probably did under the direction of the RO. Interesting senario, will be interested in seeing how headquarters responds.

In my own mind he did bobble the reload and live ammo hit the ground. He did not perform the reload as intended. If I were the shooter, I wouldn't try to argue the point of the PE because I picked up the mag before leaving the station. I would take responsibility for dropping the mag and not doing the RWR properly. I know in your example no PE was awarded. I wouldn't argue to get a PE either in a match. If one was awarded, I would just accept it and start thinking of how I was going to shoot the next station properly and leave this station behind in my mind or it might effect the next stage that I shoot.

I shoot a match this afternoon and will bring this one up.

Rick

[Ted Murphy]

The section from page 39 reads like this:

Are we to believe that HQ wanted us to retain a partial magazine or an empty magazine in some cases, before firing a shot, and leave a full one on the ground as long as the shooter doesn't move?

Don't know what HQ officially believes, but I believe the intent of the rule is to allow someone who bobbles a reload and drops a FULL magazine to use his next magazine to engage the targets from that position, but must pick up the full magazine before leaving that point of cover and moving on.

What has to be done with a partial magazine that is dropped is covered very well in the rulebook. This seems to be a bit of duality, but I think it is a decent balance between not screwing somenoe who screwed up and dropped a full mag, and having people abuse the rules by conveniently "dropping" their partial in order to do a legal speedload.

Ted

[Precision40]

While doing the reload, shooter drops his magazine. Instead of picking up the dropped magazine, he goes to his belt and loads from the spare magazine allowed on his belt. IS THIS A PROCEDURAL ERROR? Yes

Precision40 (why won't people use names?)

Look on pp 39 and the quote above. That specifically pertains to bobbling a reload and dropping a magazine. No procedural.

Ted

I guess I was referring more to the ipsc reload and should have been more specific. I agree, if someone intentionally drops it, a PE is given, if he accidentally drops it, there shouldn't be any PE.

[Duane Thomas]

Now here's a question. Let's say I'm down behind low cover at the last position in the stage, I go to reload and drop the mag, I grab my second mag, do the reload, finish the stage, then, before I unload and show clear I pick up the mag and put it away. I actually had this happen to me, and the SO ruled that since I retrieved and stored the mag before unloading and putting away the gun which is the real end of my run, I got no procedural. Makes sense to me. Would it have been different if I'd unloaded and holstered, THEN picked up the mag, even though I hadn't moved from that spot? I think so. Opinions?

[John Dunn]

Travesty-DQ.

[Liota]

Just a comment from a lowly USPSA shooter, if your game is tactical, how tactical is it to retrieve a magazine that has dropped from a firearm during a COF? Wouldn't you want to neutralize the situation, THEN worry about picking up magazines off the ground? I'm confused.

Liota

[COF]

Given the original premise of the thread "While doing the reload, shooter drops his magazine. Instead of picking up the dropped magazine, he goes to his belt and loads from the spare magazine allowed on his belt" there is no PE based on Rule 4 under Ammunition Carrier Notes.

Since the shooter did not leave the shooting position to finish the string of fire, then he didn't leave the magazine behind so again, no PE. This happened on String 1, but if it happened on String 2 where the shooter reloads and then advances to the barrel, then they would have to retrieve the magazine before moving from cover or incur a PE

"Failure to do the reload specified by the CoF will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty or an FTDR. Failure to properly stow a partial magazine or live ammunition after a Tactical Reload or Reload with Retention prior to firing the first shot after the reload, will incur a procedural penalty."

This rule applies to stowing the partial magazine or ammunition removed from the gun, not a full magazine fumbled during a reload. This addresses the speed/IPSC reload.

Duane, good question. My take is - if you don't leave the magazine behind, you don't leave it behind. Whether you retrieve it before you unload and show clear, or afterwards, is a moot point. If the COF is completed at that position, you never left the magazine/ammo behind so it doesn't matter when you picked it up. From a safety standpoint, I'd rather have someone unload and show clear before they bend over to pick up a magazine on the ground.

Liota, the concept is based on not leaving ammunition behind if you have to move from your cover position. Whether or not IDPA is tactical is a whole 'nother can of worms.

Jerry

[Clay1]

Liota, don't try to think tactical. Think that this is a strange contract negotiation and that these are the rules. You just need to play by the rules.

There are many rules in a football game that I don't understand the why or where, but they are the rules. This is a game that we play.

Duane Thomas, I see your point.

[Liota]

Guys, I understand that you wouldn't want to leave your ammunition behind. Heck! I've even picked up a mag in USPSA competition if I knew I would need it later.

Too many people have pointed out the "Tactical" aspect of IDPA, so the question seemed logical to me. I am fully aware that it is a game.

Liota

[Gun Geek]

On the original question:

If the dropped mag was retrieved before any another shot was fired - no PE. Here's my reasoning:

1) The point of tac reload and RWR is that the shooter does not leave usable ammo in the fight. Picking up the mag before shooting again.

2) Sounds like the shooter gained no advantage (i.e. shorter time) by not following the "rules" (a tac or RWR exactly how the book does it). I can't imagine that picking up a mag is faster than a reload.

This last concept is how I try to cut through the ambiguity of the rule book.

On Duane's question-

PE for leaving ammo on the ground. Sounds like you fired another shot after the bobbled reload. It seems clear that leaving ammo on the ground is a PE, the problem is when have you left it. In my judgement when you fired the next shot you left it.

[Clay1]

I've been thinking all along in this thread about picking up the mag before leaving the station, but Gun Geek brings up a great point.

This is cut and paste from the rulebook:

Appendix TWO - Approved IDPA Reloads

Failure to do an IDPA approved reload will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty per infraction. Failure to do the reload specified by the CoF will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty or an FTDR. Failure to properly stow a partial magazine or live ammunition after a Tactical Reload or Reload with Retention prior to firing the first shot after the reload, will incur a procedural penalty.

[Mark Perez]

IMNSHO,

the best course of action would be to tape any hits and start over.

ymmv,

Mark

[andrewcolglazier]

What is the intent of the rules pertaining to ammo management in IDPA? The intent is to prevent the loss of ammunition which may be needed later in the gunfight.

Therefore, any ammo left behind that was not left behind as the result of a malfunction is a no-no, and will result in a PE.

If the ammo is not on your person when you finish the COF, you get a PE. Ammo lying on the ground at your feet is not under your control regardless of where you show clear and holster. It must be stowed before the last shot fired in the COF, because it is the last shot fired which signals the end of an IDPA gunfight, not when you show clear and holster.

Andy C.

I've been thinking all along in this thread about picking up the mag before leaving the station, but Gun Geek brings up a great point.

This is cut and paste from the rulebook:

Appendix TWO - Approved IDPA Reloads

Failure to do an IDPA approved reload will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty per infraction. Failure to do the reload specified by the CoF will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty or an FTDR. Failure to properly stow a partial magazine or live ammunition after a Tactical Reload or Reload with Retention prior to firing the first shot after the reload, will incur a procedural penalty.

[Clay1]

Mark, that has become a recent pet peeve of mine at some IDPA clubs. The rules are there, inforce them, just because you have to think about what to do doesn't mean that someone gets to run the stage for free one time.

Does that mean if I don't like the run that I had I can just drop a mag and then ask to do it over?

[kdmoore]

Guys, I understand that you wouldn't want to leave your ammunition behind. Heck! I've even picked up a mag in USPSA competition if I knew I would need it later.

Too many people have pointed out the "Tactical" aspect of IDPA, so the question seemed logical to me. I am fully aware that it is a game.

Liota

OK, I'll bite and get on the slippery slope. In order to make the IDPA more tactical in it's nature, the overarching principal seems to be to abolish counting rounds. I'd guess that someone could find a study somewhere that during the middle of any "serious action" the last thing on one's mind is round counting. Thus, to keep it out of middle of the game they have the "leave no round" behind rules. I think this is true, because they carried it to the extreme of not allowing one to leave an empty mag behind if the gun isn't empty (round still chambered). Seems like the real reason is to abolish round counting.

IMO, they were right to do so, even tho it spawned the crazy RWR's that were done on the clock until lately. And all of what I've written is "IMO" as I don't have any actual knowledge.

Some rules enforce a higher idea on some levels, but end up being "anti tactical" on another level. As you can't have both, you do the one most important to you. Another example was the lack of response to full capacity mags. I asked if we thought we'd go to allowing full cap mags a year back. Responses here and my own thinking convinced me that we were better served keeping the 10 round restriction. I don't know if IDPA would have had a 10 round limit if not for the AWB (say, if it had spawned prior to ban), but I'm glad it's here (now, not at first). It effectively keeps a shooter from basing his choice in firearms solely on the mag capacity. Otherwise, we'd mostly run Glock 17/35's. So, while competing with 10 round mags isn't very "tactical" or "RW", it levels the playing field between numerous firearms and between the banned/non banned states. A compromise designed to bring about the most "good".

I'm sure there are other examples.

I offer this as an answer to your question, but would suggest if it generates more dialog that we start another thread?

Edited November 11, 2005 by kdmoore

[Mark Perez]

Mark, that has become a recent pet peeve of mine at some IDPA clubs. The rules are there, inforce them, just because you have to think about what to do doesn't mean that someone gets to run the stage for free one time.

Does that mean if I don't like the run that I had I can just drop a mag and then ask to do it over?

Classifier/Stage 3/String 1:

The shooter shoots his first 6 from the side of barricade , bobbles his reload-drops the mag,draws the spare,finger f***s the magwell and totally blows the next 6 rounds.

I don't really care how you run it Clay or what your pet peeves are.

I'm giving that poor bastard a re-shoot because it's the right thing to do,imnsho.

If the shooter wants to decline the offer , he is free to continue.

ymmv,

Mark

Edited November 11, 2005 by Mark Perez

[Clay1]

If it's a classifier they can reshoot the stage, thats in the rules. If it is a match that's a whole different story. If it is a fun league night who cares.

Some get a reshoot in a match and some just take their lumps and just learn and look forward to the next match. Mark, the pet peeve thing came from a specific match recently where after having a bad reload the shooter looks over to the SO and asks "can I just start over?" This was during a competition and the SO let him. That's not fair to the rest of us who worked hard on making everything happen the right way the first time around. As an SO the proper response is: "work through it" and then keep the clock running.

Rick