gl Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 (edited) I need to know your educated preference for a scope for an 18" barrel AR. I have messsed with the ACOG NSN, and when are we going to be allowed to used my J point on the scope itself for as backup without being placed in open? Lots of working guys have them in actual use...... Right now I zero my NSN at 200 yards in the 100 yard mark and it seems to be dead on at 300 yds at the 200 yard mark, dead on at 400 yards at the 300 yard mark and dead on at 550 yards at the 400 yard mark with a 16" barrel with 55gr Federal american eagle ammo. But have switched to a JP 18" which has more velocity (and John Paul supports the sport better than Bushmaster). Comments? Any and all info is appreciated (besides stick to my iron sight gun Kelly..LOL) I want some magnification, but not alot, and it is for 3gun. Thanks in advance! Guy Hawkins Edited October 31, 2005 by gl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gl Posted October 31, 2005 Author Share Posted October 31, 2005 Folks I want any and all opinions. I don't care if you were wheeled off of a short bus for the handicaped or are the head of the pack in 3gun. On scope stuff I need any an all help. Thanks, Guy Hawkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 So what's wrong with the TA01 again? Or the TA11? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 +1 to Zak's Q on "why not the TA's" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 (edited) Guy, first hope you have recovered and are doing well. Now as to the scope the new Meopta discussed elsewhere in the forum may be the current state of the art scope for 3 gun. Just put one on a backup gun and still playing with it but sure is fast and easy to use. Good out to 350 yds. true 1X4, 2min. dot @ 4 power, 8 min. dot on 1 power. With a 20 in. barrel you can see the end of your barrel through the sight on 1 power. Has a good 300 yd. hold point with 69 gr. bullets. Some of the new owners are Pat Kelley, Major Mel, Garrett ( you remember him ) Me and Kurt iron sight Miller. Pat ran his at the Arkansas 3 gun last weekend and liked it a lot. I think your brother looked through one at Arkansas so ask him what he thinks. If you want more info e-mail me for the full scoop. Keith Edited October 31, 2005 by Bronco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 My quick opinions on scopes: TA11: best reticle but not perfect, great optics, good field of view, but tough (for me anyway) to shoot at short range. Mike Voigt told me how to do it. I think he is a voodoo priest after trying his technique which did not work for me at all. I tried Matt Burkett's method and that does not work for me either although his method is not voodoo. I'd need the JP short range iron sight on any rifle with a TA11. TA01: Terrible reticle unless you get the JP version. Leupold 1.5-5X: good optics, I like the duplex reticle and the range of power. Just wish it were a true 1X. Not so sure about the SPR reticle which seems a bit hard to pick up at speed. The outer ring needs to be thickened up. I would take the duplex or circle dot over the SPR at this time. Leupold CQT: Ok but not the scope it should be. Front objective too small. Not enough power on the back end. Meopta: good glass, a true 1X, excellent illumination. I don't like the reticle though. I think it's too coarse and provides little help with long range shooting. A scope with a lot of potential. IOR 1.1-4X: Decent glass (not as good as Leupold or the German scopes) and good range of power (almost a true 1X), kind of heavy. The CQB reticle has potential but needs to lose some of the excess baggage. Illumination only works in the dark. Holosight: Rules the roost inside of 100 yards. Not any better than iron sights past 100 yards. Simmons 1.5-5X. Inexpensive. Decent reticle. Great field of view. Not so sure about durability but at $50 a pop, it's hard to say no. Schmidt and Bender Short Dot: Excellent glass. WAY over rated due to its use by spec ops guys. Utterly horrible reticle for a carbine but very bright dot. Critical eye relief. WAY Cool sight adjustment turrets. WAY too much money. Kahles 1.1-4X: Excellent glass. German-style reticle is pretty cool once you figure it out but odd for American shooters. U.S. Optics SN4: true 1X, good field of view. Circle dot reticle is probably the best thing going until you get past 250 yards. Heavy and tough. Functions as backup hammer if you need to pound a tent peg. Expensive. It's likely that I'll have my IOR on for Benning. But I'd have my TA11 on for Raton. Guy since you are a fabulously wealthy attorney, you ought to buy one of each .... and then go back to iron sights. UP THE IRONS!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactustactical Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Kelly, we got in a few of the IOR 1.1-4's with the new reticle design. If you are going to be at the Rio 2 gun in a few weeks, I will bring one for you to take a look at. The final design is a compromise between all the opinions gathered at RM3G last year. We also have some of the Meopta's in house now. I am going to mount one before that match and see how it works. We have been a Meopta dealer for years, but did not sell much of their stuff other than the spotting scopes line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gl Posted November 3, 2005 Author Share Posted November 3, 2005 Kelly, I think I will use a toilet paper tube 100mph taped to my handguard next year....LOL! Thank you so much for the detailed help!! Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Guy, garrett told me last week at ark. that you are still walking sidways, heh! heh! heh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucas Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 It would be a 1X EOTECH with current ACOG chev or donut ret, if made, with a 4X magnifier on a SAMSON quick flip mount.Then it would be legal and as fast as my ACOGS with JP dots on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Guy: I don't know the Voight method or any other, but up close or far away the TA-11 works for me as long as it's a doughnut!! Kelly is way to eye dominant to know about that! On the up side I am triing the Meopta and so far all I can say is good. The field of view is great and the dot really lights up!! A true 1X. I'm not sure if it does anything for me that the TA-11 doesn't do but I'm going to try it for a while! I'm glad Kelly is going to shoot an IOR at Benning, as the M.P.s will immediatly confiscate that com block crap and I won't have to shoot against him. KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paule Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Mike uses the "over the top" method with a TA11. Both eyes open, head very slightly "up" on the stock. Just enough where you can nonlonger see through the scope, but the lit reticle is still visible. You see the reticle with your dominant eye and the target with your other eye. Mod 0 brain housing group does the rest. This works for most people out to 20-25 yards. Some to 50 yds or more, but not commonly. Matt uses a flip cover on a TA11. Closed it works like any occluded sight, similar to the over the top, but with a more consistent head position. Results are typically similar. Both methods work for most people, the cover is easier to master. The caveat is that this will not work at all for some people. The reason is that some folks' vision does not work this way when both eyes are not able to see an image in the same plane. In their brains, when binocular vision is not sending images back, the brain uncouples the eyes and their focus wanders independently. When this occurs the target will be seen in a completely different place, not connected to where the reticle appears. You can see this easily by bagging up a scoped rifle with the reticle on a target. Look hard through the scope, and without moving, cover the objective. at 50 yards, the target will "move" 2-4 feet for most people almost immediately. Blink both eyes and it will momentarily return to the reticle, then drift off again. THe reason this doesn't happen when shooting on the move is that your eyes are always moving, recoil is disrupting your brain slightly and your motor control needs are being met. This keeps most folks brains busy enough to keep the target and reticle aligned correctly long enough to get a shot off, then everything resets. None of this happens when you can look through the scope. That is a main reason that the military is so interested in a true 1-4x variable scope with a bright reticle. Their original spec was for a 1-6x but this has proven to be impossible to build in a reasonable sized scope package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 (edited) Guy, Since Kelly has already given you a pretty good rundown of your choices in scopes (although he forgot to mention my "sleeper"), I'll just add a few things. You have three basic choices for scopes. 1- Electronic dot style scope (EOTech, Aimpoint, ect..) 2- Fixed power glass scope (ACOG versions) 3- Variable power scope (Endless choices) Considering the wide range of distances encountered during rifles stages, literally muzzle contact distance to 400+ yards, I prefer using scopes that have the ability to adapt to the ranges I'm dealing with. To me, that means a variable scope. Now before George, Zak, and all the other ACOG fans get their panties in a bunch, let me say that ACOG's are excellent scopes and a quick check of the results at major matches will show that ACOG's are well represented in the winners circle. I think once the targets are in excess of 100 yards, the ACOG's really begin to shine and are tough to beat. The calibrated reticules are wonderful inventions and they are very fast at distance. The ACOG's main weakness is the up close (less than 50 yards) distances. Yes, I know about all the voodoo techniques that people use up close and many of them are excellent techniques, but they are nothing more than ways to compensate for the ACOG weakness. They do work, but not as effectively as say a dot scope. I don't think you'll find too many people who will make the statement AND stand behind the assertion that inside 15 yards, their ACOG's are faster than an EOTech or an Aimpoint. The voodoo techniques help the ACOG's keep pace with the dot scopes, but they will never be as fast. While many "true" rifle shooters complain that there are not enough long distance shots in matches (especially this years 3GN), a quick check of real world events show the rifle or carbine is the new across the board weapons platform. It's doing everything from long range precision fire to contact distance CQB, and performing quite well in all aspects. I see close range rifle (read pistol type stages) being encountered more and more in 3-gun matches. Most of the matches I have shot, with a few exceptions, have one long range stage (200+ yds.), one intermediate range stage (50-200 yds.), and 2-3 close range stages (under 50 yds.) Understanding that this is bulk of what we're seeing in 3-Gun, I choose to select my optic based on the types of stages I'm most likely to encounter. If 3-gun had a rule that rifle stages had to be a minimum of 100 yards, I'd be all over an ACOG, but it doesn't. This leaves us with either choice 1 or 3. If you break it down even further, a dot scope is nothing more than an ACOG on the other side of the distance equation. It's great up close, but it's weakness is distance. The nice little 1 moa center dot on the EOTech's make distance shooting easier, but it's not the best option. This leaves the variable scope as our last choice. Things to look for in a variable scope (not withstanding a good quality scope with good clear glass) are a magnification range that covers all range aspects we're likely to encounter. This translates to a 1-4 or 1-5 variable magnification range. While the upper end of the range usefulness tends to max out at 5 (over 5 starts to cause other problems I'm not going to go into), the more important aspect is the low-end magnification. Most scopes offer 1.5 as the low end, with some offering 1.25 and a few offer a true 1 power. I feel that the MOST critical aspect of a variable scope is finding a scope with a true 1 power reticle. Understanding that the majority of the stages and shots with a rifle will be relativley close and realizing that dot type scopes rule on the up close targets, finding a variable scope with true 1 power will maximize our performance. After all, a true 1 power scope is nothing more that and electronic dot scope with a crosshair for a reticle instead of a dot. The 1.25 and 1.5 scopes will work, just not a efficiently as a true 1 power scope. With a 1.25 and a 1.5, you will always have some image distortion immediately outside the reticle. This slows down your target to target transitions, and transitions are where people win or lose, not target split times. I use a true 1 power scope and shoot it with both eyes open (like a dot.) Not having the slight distortion present in the 1.25 and 1.5 power scopes lets me get a clearer look and a faster transition to the next target, and like I said before, transitions are what wins on the up close stages. Sorry this went so long, but I kinda got on a roll. I may have to save this, it might make a good Front Sight article. Hope this helps your venture into the dark world of optics. Erik Edited November 4, 2005 by Bear1142 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactustactical Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Erik, what is the "sleeper" scope that you are currently using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Weaver 1-3X, I believe. Sorry I omitted it from my list! My Mod O brain housing group does not function that well. Actually, I'm so right eye dominant that that system fails to work FOR ME but it obviously works quite well for others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Kelly, That's okay, I kinda like having that scope all to myself. Cactustactical, As Kelly mentioned, it's a Weaver 1-3x20 classic variable. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 this thread is facinating. i know i still haven't found what i like. given there are alot of rifle shots so close in (IMHO that's dumb), it's a tough choice. when i first started 3 gun, i had a huge leupold (3.5x10x50) on top of my flatop. was great for far out stuff but sucked for the close stuff and was overkill on the objective. mounted an optima on top of the tube for close stuff, but parallax made that good only for 25 yds or so. then i dumped that setup and went to an acog TA01. found the fixed magnification was no good for the close stuff, but didn't want a 2nd optic to deal with. even then, the reticle on it was too messy to deal with when reaching out. i dumped that and tried a TA21. really liked the fact i could do close range stuff just fine and had enuf power to see the long stuff. didn't take long to figure out the hassle associated with holdover and the inconsistent group shooting as a result of the reticle. so now, i'm thinking about either a TA11 or the JP TA01. in either case, i'm gonna have to go back to a 2nd optic for the close stuff, which i hate. just wish the guys at trijicon would develop a variable version of the TA11...that would be my pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 No panty bunching at all Eric. I love my ACOG because I also have a red dot on the handguard and use it for most anything out to 50-60 yards with confidence. Take that away and I would have a gap in this coverage and the love affair with the fixed mag ACOG would lose a bit of the shine. ;-/ If I were shooting in Tac division, I might just let go of my ACOG fixation. A little topic stretch here. Has anyone here had sucess using the JP handguard irons on stuff in the 30-70 yard range. I trust my 4 minute dot to 100 yards on full targets and 50ish on small plates and upper A/B's. Do the handguard irons work that well in practical application? BTW, total agreement with Kelly on the standard TA01 reticle. That's why I chose the JP version, clean and fast, no BS. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 (edited) George I never spent enough time with the JP handguards to gain the confidence for shots much over 50 yds. But to be honest I think a little more practice I would have cured that. The reason for giving up on them is that I have found a very effective variable with bright illumination that PaulE was talking about ( I too feel the ideal optic is a low power variable with good illumination). I have been shooting a prototype scope fromMueller Optics that for me is the SHIZNIT!. I used this scope at RM3G, Area 1 3G, and 3 Gun Nats. It is a true 1x4 scope with an illuminated reticle that is easily as bright as the Eo's or Aimpoints. However the illumination is such that you don't have the starburst effect when you turn it up. Being a true 1x4 you don't get the little bit of eye focus fluctuations that you get from the 1.25, 1.5 x scopes when you are on the low power. On this particular scope FOV is 96 feet on 1x so it is very similar to shooting a Holosight. At distance it is very easy to dial up some power without coming out of the scope. At nationals stage 10 I was able to go from 4x in the first port to 1x for the short stuff and back to 4x with no problems. I don't feel that it cost me time at all (shot the stage in 65 and change). The only problem is the one I have is still a prototype although the production pieces should be coming soon, hopefully by the first of the year. Feel free to give Rich at Mueller a call and let him know if you are interested. Take care, Craig BTW Rich is projecting this scope to run in the mid $300 range. Edited November 4, 2005 by smokshwn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 George I never spent enough time with the JP handguards to gain the confidence for shots much over 50 yds. But to be honest I think a little more practice I would have cured that. The reason for giving up on them is that I have found a very effective variable with bright illumination that PaulE was talking about ( I too feel the ideal optic is a low power variable with good illumination). I have been shooting a prototype scope fromMueller Optics that for me is the SHIZNIT!. I used this scope at RM3G, Area 1 3G, and 3 Gun Nats. It is a true 1x4 scope with an illuminated reticle that is easily as bright as the Eo's or Aimpoints. However the illumination is such that you don't have the starburst effect when you turn it up. Being a true 1x4 you don't get the little bit of eye focus fluctuations that you get from the 1.25, 1.5 x scopes when you are on the low power. On this particular scope FOV is 96 feet on 1x so it is very similar to shooting a Holosight. At distance it is very easy to dial up some power without coming out of the scope. At nationals stage 10 I was able to go from 4x in the first port to 1x for the short stuff and back to 4x with no problems. I don't feel that it cost me time at all (shot the stage in 65 and change). The only problem is the one I have is still a prototype although the production pieces should be coming soon, hopefully by the first of the year. Feel free to give Rich at Mueller a call and let him know if you are interested. Take care, Craig what type of reticle design?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 (edited) The final reticle will be very similar to an Eotech reticle with a flat bottom and stadia/ranging lines below. The center dot will be 1 MOA. This pic is one of the final designs. There may be some very slight changes but for the most part you can get the idea. The prototype I have been running has simply been a duplex with a 1 MOA dot. I have gotten very used to it and I suggested to Rich that he offer it as well. I have run it with a 200 yd zero and had very good results at both RM3G and 3G Nats. Edited November 4, 2005 by smokshwn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 (edited) Smoke, Do you have some contact info for Mueller? On paper, it's a very appealing design. I'd like to see one. Are you coming to the Ft. Benning tactical match? Never mind, I saw the link in your last post. Erik Edited November 5, 2005 by Bear1142 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 Erik, Unfortunately I will not be at Benning. Also this scope is not yet a production model for Rich, so there are no pics of it on the web page. I posted his link so guys would be able to contact him and express interest. I will take a couple of pics and post them this evening. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 Here are a couple of pics. Sorry for the poor quality they are from my phone. The camera is at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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