RO Clears a Squib

[DirkD]

What rule allows an RO to clear a squib and not get DQ'd for sweeping themselves, when they put a squib rod in the barrel of a gun to clear a squib during a stage?

Not talking about the shooter as that is a DQ, but I have seen on multiple occasions an RO sweep themselves when putting a squib rod in a gun and clearing it on a stage after they stopped a shooter.

Obviously they can't call the range clear when a shooter or a RO has a gun in their hand.

For some reason many RO's think they can't tell the shooter to holster their gun and clear it in a safe area when a shooter has a squib, a bullet stuck in a barrel is not a loaded gun.

[GringoBandito]

 

1. 5.7.7  In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe firearm or unsafe ammunition (e.g.a “squib” load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe condition. The Range Officer will then inspect the firearm or ammunition and proceed as follows:

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, DirkD said:

What rule allows an RO to clear a squib and not get DQ'd for sweeping themselves, when they put a squib rod in the barrel of a gun to clear a squib during a stage?

Not talking about the shooter as that is a DQ, but I have seen on multiple occasions an RO sweep themselves when putting a squib rod in a gun and clearing it on a stage after they stopped a shooter.

Obviously they can't call the range clear when a shooter or a RO has a gun in their hand.

For some reason many RO's think they can't tell the shooter to holster their gun and clear it in a safe area when a shooter has a squib, a bullet stuck in a barrel is not a loaded gun.

There is no such rule. Suspected squib should be accompanied by match staff to safety area where gun is disassembled and checked.

[George Jones]

To which I will add:

An individual is either a competitor or a range official at any point in time.  Even at a local match, you are one or the other, you can't be both at the same time.

You can use the example of a dropped competitor firearm to confirm the concept.  How could an RO (timer or scorekeeper) who is also shooting the match ever pick up the dropped gun?

[DirkD]

On 11/20/2020 at 3:04 PM, George Jones said:

To which I will add:

An individual is either a competitor or a range official at any point in time.  Even at a local match, you are one or the other, you can't be both at the same time.

You can use the example of a dropped competitor firearm to confirm the concept.  How could an RO (timer or scorekeeper) who is also shooting the match ever pick up the dropped gun?

is it ok for a Range Officer to clear a squib on a stage?

[George Jones]

My first question would be why would you want to?

[Sarge]

On 11/20/2020 at 3:04 PM, George Jones said:

To which I will add:

An individual is either a competitor or a range official at any point in time.  Even at a local match, you are one or the other, you can't be both at the same time.

You can use the example of a dropped competitor firearm to confirm the concept.  How could an RO (timer or scorekeeper) who is also shooting the match ever pick up the dropped gun?

Not that I doubt your wisdom, but is a universal opinion throughout the RM corps? Throughout all of USPSA?

  If it is then this will be a game changer in my opinion as we typically consider ourselves competitors even while ROing. If not a universal opinion then yours is not enough to make me risk getting DQed trying to help a shooter

[JodiH]

A smart RO doesn't use a squib rod to check the barrel for a squib.  The best tool to check for a squib is a zip tie that can be inserted from the chamber end of the barrel.  Then no one gets swept.

[Sarge]

Just now, JodiH said:

A smart RO doesn't use a squib rod to check the barrel for a squib.  The best tool to check for a squib is a zip tie that can be inserted from the chamber end of the barrel.  Then no one gets swept.

I preach that to new RO’s at majors

[DirkD]

13 hours ago, JodiH said:

A smart RO doesn't use a squib rod to check the barrel for a squib.  The best tool to check for a squib is a zip tie that can be inserted from the chamber end of the barrel.  Then no one gets swept.

I have seen many range officers clear a squib on a stage after they stopped the shooter or the shooter stopped themselves, with a squib rod and they swept their fingers putting the squib rod in the muzzle end.

make sure the gun is unloaded, check it from the breach side with zip tie and then if it has a squib, have him unload, show clear, call the range clear after he holstered the gun, score it and have the shooter deal with it in the safe area or use a back up gun.

I have asked RO's why they don't send them to the safe area to clear the squib, they said they can't let the shooter leave with a loaded gun, i tried to explain to them that a bullet stuck in a barrel is not a loaded gun, but they know better I guess.

 

 

13 hours ago, Sarge said:

I preach that to new RO’s at majors

I have seen experienced RO's do it at majors, I figured they would know better than the level one club match range officials.

[DirkD]

14 hours ago, George Jones said:

My first question would be why would you want to?

I don't but have seen a lot of RO's clear a squib on a stage after the shooter had a squib or they had one.

[motosapiens]

8 minutes ago, DirkD said:

I don't but have seen a lot of RO's clear a squib on a stage after the shooter had a squib or they had one.

I can't say I'm concerned about this in the slightest. At a local match, if you've got a squib rod in your back pocket, fine. Most of them are designed so you can use them without sweeping yourself. But normally it's faster to just let the shooter deal with it himself (once you have verified the gun is unloaded) and move on to the next shooter.

 

zip tie or a piece of 22 brass dropped into the breech end can easily confirm the problem.

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, Sarge said:

Not that I doubt your wisdom, but is a universal opinion throughout the RM corps? Throughout all of USPSA?

  If it is then this will be a game changer in my opinion as we typically consider ourselves competitors even while ROing. If not a universal opinion then yours is not enough to make me risk getting DQed trying to help a shooter

so what do you do if someone drops a gun? just leave it and hope that an RO who's not shooting that day will come along?

 

[DirkD]

Just now, motosapiens said:

I can't say I'm concerned about this in the slightest. At a local match, if you've got a squib rod in your back pocket, fine. Most of them are designed so you can use them without sweeping yourself. But normally it's faster to just let the shooter deal with it himself (once you have verified the gun is unloaded) and move on to the next shooter.

 

zip tie or a piece of 22 brass dropped into the breech end can easily confirm the problem.

the squib rods they use are straight brass rods, they sweep themselves putting it in then beat the s#!t out of it with the slide locked back to get a bullet out, if I ever had a squib, no one is messing with my gun but me.

they can't call the range clear until the gun is holstered and it slows the match down.

[Sarge]

7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

so what do you do if someone drops a gun? just leave it and hope that an RO who's not shooting that day will come along?

 

The only difference is the rules call for it.

[DirkD]

13 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

so what do you do if someone drops a gun? just leave it and hope that an RO who's not shooting that day will come along?

 

an RO is still an RO if they aren't shooting a stage at the time, you call an RO have him/her/they pick up your gun and give it to you, pick it up yourself it is a dq, even if you are the RO/RM/MD

[Schutzenmeister]

@JodiH

 

PM sent

[Schutzenmeister]

@George Jones

 

PM sent

[Schutzenmeister]

On 11/20/2020 at 2:04 PM, George Jones said:

To which I will add:

An individual is either a competitor or a range official at any point in time.  Even at a local match, you are one or the other, you can't be both at the same time.

You can use the example of a dropped competitor firearm to confirm the concept.  How could an RO (timer or scorekeeper) who is also shooting the match ever pick up the dropped gun?

 

I cannot possibly agree with @George Jones more strongly.  At any given instant in time you can be an RO or a competitor, but NOT BOTH!  You MUST take one hat off before you put on the other.

 

If you cannot separate the competitor in you from the official in you and render calls objectively, impartially, and by the rules, you have no business acting as an RO.

 

Changing hats is a mental exercise and is done instantly when appropriate.*  But at NO time can you allow yourself to be in both modes simultaneously.

 

*Note:  It is NOT appropriate to try to change hats in mid stage while you are the shooter!  From "Make ready" through "Range is clear" you are a shooter and a shooter ONLY.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, DirkD said:

the squib rods they use are straight brass rods, they sweep themselves putting it in then beat the s#!t out of it with the slide locked back to get a bullet out, if I ever had a squib, no one is messing with my gun but me.

they can't call the range clear until the gun is holstered and it slows the match down.

meh. you can holster a gun with a squib in it.  I'm more concerned about slowing the match down than about the technicalities of how an RO gets a squib out of an unloaded gun.

[DirkD]

Just now, motosapiens said:

meh. you can holster a gun with a squib in it.  I'm more concerned about slowing the match down than about the technicalities of how an RO gets a squib out of an unloaded gun.

clearing a squib during the cof slows things down 

unload and show clear, hammer down holster, range is clear

score and reset the stage, call the next shooter

While everyone else is shooting and resetting the stages, the guy can clear his gun or use another gun without making everyone stand around.

[motosapiens]

^^  I agree with this, not for safety or rules reasons, but simply for match flow and convenience.

[JodiH]

10 minutes ago, DirkD said:

clearing a squib during the cof slows things down 

unload and show clear, hammer down holster, range is clear

score and reset the stage, call the next shooter

While everyone else is shooting and resetting the stages, the guy can clear his gun or use another gun without making everyone stand around.

^^ This is the way to go.  

 

When a shooter has a squib and I am the RO, after I confirm it is a squib, I finish the range commands and send them off to remove the squib on their own.  I do ask them to show me the bullet after they get it out of the gun, and before they go to the next stage.  I do that to ensure they actually got it out of the barrel versus getting side-tracked, talking with their buddies, and forgetting to remove it before the next stage.   

[DirkD]

1 hour ago, JodiH said:

^^ This is the way to go.  

 

When a shooter has a squib and I am the RO, after I confirm it is a squib, I finish the range commands and send them off to remove the squib on their own.  I do ask them to show me the bullet after they get it out of the gun, and before they go to the next stage.  I do that to ensure they actually got it out of the barrel versus getting side-tracked, talking with their buddies, and forgetting to remove it before the next stage.   

Thank You, I am glad you respond to help us on these types of questions.