.45ACP ejector/extractor tuning

[Janskis]

 

Video probably tells most of the story but I'll provide some backstory.

The pistol has functioned flawlessly for something between 1000 and 2000 rounds after I swapped a stiffer recoil spring (by the looks of it, I could use an even stiffer one, more aggressive FPS plate or a stiffer main spring).

 

I posted a shorter version of this video on my personal facebook and a gunsmith I know said that this needs tuning. After said comment I decided to slow it down some more and I noticed the bad ejection too. I've had some troubles emptying the gun after stages due to the anemic ejection before.

 

Now the question is how do I fix this? I know the correct answer is TAKE IT TO A GUNSMITH but I would really like to understand how the ejection is affected by ejector and extractor tuning. By the looks of this, I'd say the extractor is a bit too stiff and should be rounded (can't remember if it already is) to ensure smoother chambering and easier ejection. Am I even in the right ballpark? Is this problem more of an extractor problem than an ejection problem?

[Ken6PPC]

Here is what your extractor should look like when a case is inserted: 

 

 

 

Notice that the hook does not touch the rim, nor the bottom of the extraction groove of the case.  Only the flat part of the extractor is touching the cartridge rim.  After this shape is correct, adjust extractor tension so a loaded round neither falls out on it's own, nor is held so tightly that shaking the slide won't dislodge it.  It should dislodge with a gentle shaking of the slide.  

 

As noted in the picture, kudos to Jerry Keefer for the picture of "perfect" extractor fitting!  

[mesa3gunner]

Looks like the ejector isn't kicking the brass out until the end of the recoil cycle. Brownell's offers an extended version which will clear the port sooner.

 

https://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/action-parts/ejector-parts/ejectors/combat-45-extended-ejector-sku965000023-16396-46126.aspx

[Ken6PPC]

38 minutes ago, mesa3gunner said:

Looks like the ejector isn't kicking the brass out until the end of the recoil cycle. Brownell's offers an extended version which will clear the port sooner.

 

https://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/action-parts/ejector-parts/ejectors/combat-45-extended-ejector-sku965000023-16396-46126.aspx

 

I respectfully disagree.  If you look at the video frame by frame, the case is starting to eject when the front of the slide is barely even with the front of the dust cover.  I would ensure the extractor shape and tension are both correct first, and then check the ejection.  If it is still showing signs of bouncing off the front of the ejection port, THEN I would take a look at the ejector shape and length. 

 

I would actually suspect ejector SHAPE may be more of an issue than its length, but in any case, the extractor has to be tuned properly before the ejector can do it's job properly.  

 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Ken6PPC
typo

[Janskis]

1 hour ago, Ken6PPC said:

Here is what your extractor should look like when a case is inserted: 

 

 

 

Notice that the hook does not touch the rim, nor the bottom of the extraction groove of the case.  Only the flat part of the extractor is touching the cartridge rim.  After this shape is correct, adjust extractor tension so a loaded round neither falls out on it's own, nor is held so tightly that shaking the slide won't dislodge it.  It should dislodge with a gentle shaking of the slide.  

 

As noted in the picture, kudos to Jerry Keefer for the picture of "perfect" extractor fitting!  

Thanks for the pic. I've done extractor tension tuning with my 9mm open but have never realized that the hook doesn't touch the rim itself. I believed myself (and read around) that .45acp ejection is slightly different from 9mm so that's why I'm asking. I'll check the internals when I get home shortly. I'll also provide pics of the ejector.

[Janskis]

 

The ejector seems tuned but the rounding on the extractor is minimal. I slightly rounded the lower edge of the extractor and trid to stiffen it slightly, it just popped out of the slide, unlike my open gun extractor, and the round seemed to just barely hang on the extractor. This one is really hard to tighten though, as it has been reinforced on both sides.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Janskis

[mesa3gunner]

In the picture the ejector looks very short. It may be broken off or been shortened causing the problem.. There should be a leg on the front side of it. 

Edited April 23, 2020 by mesa3gunner
illiteracy

[mesa3gunner]

[Ken6PPC]

Sounds like you need to increase your extractor tension. 

 

It is kinda hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like the hook is touching the beveled part of the case, where I put a blue arrow.  If so, reduce the hook until only the case rim touches the flat on the extractor. 

 

Then, put the extractor part way into the hole in the hole in the slide, and bend it to increase tension.  You may have to remove metal from the pressure pad just rearward from the hook.  I'm not talking about the bump that is right beside your finger in your picture.  I mean the one about a 1/4" behind the tip of the hook.  See the red arrow.  

 

You want the extractor to grip the case tightly enough that it takes a little shaking to dislodge it from the slide.  It is possible to take off too much metal, so go slow, and test often.  

 

The ejector does seem a little short, but the original ejectors for 45 ACP 1911 were short.  When the extractor tension is correct, I bet your ejection problems will be gone.  If they don't, then think about replacing the ejector, but work on the extractor first.  90% of all feeding and ejection issues in a 1911 are either magazine or extractor related.  

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Ken6PPC

[MikeBurgess]

15 minutes ago, mesa3gunner said:

In the picture the ejector looks very short. It may be broken off causing the problem.. There should be a leg on the front side of it. 

that is a original design 45 ejector, the one you show is a newer extended one. 

[rishii]

Simple test

load a dummy round or if your gun will feed empty brass that’ll  works better, remove the mag and hand cycle

did the round eject out the top or fall out the bottom, if it fell out the bottom, your extractor tension is loose

also you put in a heavier spring, 16.5 is standard, a heavier spring will retard the rearward motion of the slide, reducing the energy needed to extract and eject the case

 

your ejector is standard for 45  acp, I wouldn’t put and extended

[Postal Bob]

29 minutes ago, mesa3gunner said:

In the picture the ejector looks very short. It may be broken off or been shortened causing the problem. There should be a leg on the front side of it. 

^This. Looks like your ejector is broken off, and might've been for a long time as it's smoothed over.It doesn't even extend out, and looks smoothed over.  It might have ejected brass with a lower weight recoil spring by coincidence. But now with a heavier spring, it's showing the weakness.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Postal Bob

[Ken6PPC]

30 minutes ago, mesa3gunner said:

 

That ejector is usually used for a 9mm.  This one is in a 45, and the original ejectors for 45's are pretty short.  Here is a picture of an original 1911 45 ACP ejector: 

 

 

I'm not saying that extended ejectors are not used in 45's.  I am saying they aren't usually required....  

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Ken6PPC
additional info

[Postal Bob]

This is my ejector in my .45. It extends out somewhat, therefore causing ejection sooner.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Postal Bob

[Ken6PPC]

15 minutes ago, rishii said:

Simple test

load a dummy round or if your gun will feed empty brass that’ll  works better, remove the mag and hand cycle

did the round eject out the top or fall out the bottom, if it fell out the bottom, your extractor tension is loose

also you put in a heavier spring, 16.5 is standard, a heavier spring will retard the rearward motion of the slide, reducing the energy needed to extract and eject the case

 

your ejector is standard for 45  acp, I wouldn’t put and extended

 

I find it is easier to do this test with the slide off of the frame.  If you leave it on the frame, and pull the slide far enough rearward, the ejector can interfere and make it harder to determine if the extractor is holding the case enough or not.  

 

[Ken6PPC]

5 minutes ago, Postal Bob said:

This is my ejector in my .45. It extends out somewhat, therefore causing ejection sooner.

 

 

 

Yes, that is a slightly extended ejector, and common on recent 45 ACP 1911's.  Some are much longer than that, but I know that the original ejector was short, and is usually good enough. 

 

Extended ejectors help mask the problem of improperly tuned extractors.  

 

 

[Steve in Allentown PA]

Here's a link to an extractor fitting tutorial that may be of some use to you: LINK.

[Janskis]

1 hour ago, mesa3gunner said:

In the picture the ejector looks very short. It may be broken off or been shortened causing the problem.. There should be a leg on the front side of it. 

I bought the gun new. The ejector is just as it was when new, the finish is barely lost on it.

56 minutes ago, Ken6PPC said:

Sounds like you need to increase your extractor tension. 

 

It is kinda hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like the hook is touching the beveled part of the case, where I put a blue arrow.  If so, reduce the hook until only the case rim touches the flat on the extractor. 

 

Then, put the extractor part way into the hole in the hole in the slide, and bend it to increase tension.  You may have to remove metal from the pressure pad just rearward from the hook.  I'm not talking about the bump that is right beside your finger in your picture.  I mean the one about a 1/4" behind the tip of the hook.  See the red arrow.  

 

You want the extractor to grip the case tightly enough that it takes a little shaking to dislodge it from the slide.  It is possible to take off too much metal, so go slow, and test often.  

 

The ejector does seem a little short, but the original ejectors for 45 ACP 1911 were short.  When the extractor tension is correct, I bet your ejection problems will be gone.  If they don't, then think about replacing the ejector, but work on the extractor first.  90% of all feeding and ejection issues in a 1911 are either magazine or extractor related.  

 

Red arrow material removal is once again new stuff. This one I won't file, I'll have to get some finer sandpaper for this. I managed to tighten the extractor a bit, now it snaps in place when inserting it back. I did file a slight bevel to the vertical inner side of the ejector to get more torque and more consistent ejection.

51 minutes ago, rishii said:

Simple test

load a dummy round or if your gun will feed empty brass that’ll  works better, remove the mag and hand cycle

did the round eject out the top or fall out the bottom, if it fell out the bottom, your extractor tension is loose

also you put in a heavier spring, 16.5 is standard, a heavier spring will retard the rearward motion of the slide, reducing the energy needed to extract and eject the case

 

your ejector is standard for 45  acp, I wouldn’t put and extended

I tried hand cycling dummies, now I'm getting a bit better extraction than before. The original spring was probably 14 lbs and now I have a 16 lb spring in.

[Ken6PPC]

9 minutes ago, Steve in Allentown PA said:

Here's a link to an extractor fitting tutorial that may be of some use to you: LINK.

 

There you go!  Nothing better anywhere!  

 

(Not that Steve in Allentown PA needs any endorsement from my humble self!)  

[Ken6PPC]

2 minutes ago, Janskis said:

I bought the gun new. The ejector is just as it was when new, the finish is barely lost on it.

Red arrow material removal is once again new stuff. This one I won't file, I'll have to get some finer sandpaper for this. I managed to tighten the extractor a bit, now it snaps in place when inserting it back. I did file a slight bevel to the vertical inner side of the ejector to get more torque and more consistent ejection.

I tried hand cycling dummies, now I'm getting a bit better extraction than before. The original spring was probably 14 lbs and now I have a 16 lb spring in.

 

The recoil spring has little to nothing to do with extraction and ejection. 

 

If it is TOO STRONG, it can impede feeding, because the magazine won't have enough time to lift the next cartridge. 

 

If it is TOO LIGHT, it can fail to cycle the slide enough to feed.  

[Janskis]

Just now, Ken6PPC said:

 

The recoil spring has little to nothing to do with extraction and ejection. 

 

If it is TOO STRONG, it can impede feeding, because the magazine won't have enough time to lift the next cartridge. 

 

If it is TOO LIGHT, it can fail to cycle the slide enough to feed.  

Yeah I was just answering to the guy wondering about the recoil spring. With 14 lb I had the bullets hitting the top of the breech and failing to feed. The stronger spring circumvented the issue, but mag lips should probably be tuned to actually solve the problem...