Speeding Up Your Shot Call..how To?

[MikeFoley]

Formeister,

  Where did you get the push is the out of control practice approach??? 

If you don't mind explain your version of this practice approach.  How you view it happens. 

Just curious because I trained this way, always have, way before I picked up a pistol.

Flyin40

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think my my point was that the term push is subjective, and that those guys who use that approach push very hard. I view the term push in the match setting to mean force a certain speed. I may be wrong, but the only things I can push are the movements and the setups, the shooting suffers when I force a speed at the gun. I know guys who try to go out of control, as has been discussed elsewhere in the forum, and in my own shooting, I am very opposed to it, it just doesn't feel right, it gets me bad results, and it isn't a method I can track and build on. Those guys also sweep shoot close arrays, and I just can't get the job done like that, I rarely waste points, and when I do, it is a B zone shot on a partially obscured target, or 17A and 1D taken in haste. My observations may be out of context a bit, but when I read this thread, I tended to agree with Jake. It isn't that I can't run out of control, but almost like I am OCD about doing it the other way, and the results I get from it always force me back to fundamentals, which is a common theme from all of the top shooters. I get better when I do the fundamentals to the point of redundancy, and I can chronologically track those results at the major matches I shot this year, and my classifiers too. Did that answer the questions?

[Flyin40]

Yes you answered it. I figured thats how you looked at it but wanted to make sure. We could start a whole new topic on it. When I was talking about Area 5 and pushing myself I was talking more with things other than shooting. Other parts like running etc.

Its a real hard concept to grasp for people. The goal of your kind of shooting is to be accurate. Speed comes with practice, proper technique and refining seeing the sights. I approach the same goal but in a different manner. Your learning accuracy first, speed comes with that EVENTUALLY. Sometimes yrs. This pertains to all sports not just shooting. The other approach works on accuracy and speed.

Your goal is not to go fast. Your trying to learn to see the sights(to be accurate) at a faster speed. The goal is the same for both, accuracy. I have found for myself I can achieve the same goal in a small percentage of the time required to learn it the other way. The end result is the same. Again this is sports in general.

Never is out of control shooting acceptable. Just blazing away. We all have done it and sometimes even purposefully.

To use this method you really have to understand the whole concept.

If you don't you will hurt your shooting. You will develop bad habits, lose fundatmentals and basic technque.

First pushing is only a part of the practice. Its used to learn what its like to perform at a higher level. Even while practing this way the goal stays the same. Accuracy(seeing) is the main goal but developing the ability to see faster is the secondary goal.

I have seen so many guys so focused on accuracy that it hurts them. They never miss, always get A's but complain because they are slow. The goal should never change but pushing the limits should. Your limits should change frequently. If they don't that means your stagnant. Staying the same, not getting better or the progress is so slow that it is crawling.

If you add it to your training sessions, at least for me I saw improvement so quickly it was hard to believe.

Things to look out for

Shooting to fast to much and not working on the other aspects of shooting.

Losing sight of the goal which is accuracy(seeing).

Basic technique and fundementals being lost.

Losing sight of the goal which is accuracy(seeing).

Rushing to get to the next target.

Losing sight of the goal which is accuracy(seeing).

Everytime you have a miss your must evaluate why you missed. If you go through a practice and have misses and don't try to understand why you had them or what caused them then you reinforce bad habits and sloppy shooting. This type of practice won't help or might even make you worse.

You will have misses doing it this way. Its part of the learning process. If your worried about how you place in a match don't do it in a match then. I could care less if I finished 1st or 50th. What I enjoy is pushing my abilities. I get more satifaction out of doing something that I haven't done before than I do out of actually winning. Maybe thats why this works for me.

Hopefully that help you understand it. I agree with you, just blazing away doesn't do you any good.

Flyin40

[MikeFoley]

Thanks, I understand better than I did before. Would you consider it pushing when in practice, using par times, that I constantly lower them until I have to be dead on exerted to hit the draw, reload, or whatever the drill is? I try to start slow and lower them until I am having trouble making it happen, then loosen the par time .1 until I can get it again most of the time. If that is pushing, then I suppose I have been doing it, mostly at home in dry fire exercise.

I cannot force myself to use any match to test limits. That doesn't mean I won't try something small in one, but not usually. Heck, I won't even try new gear until I have used in practice several times. I may be a little conservative. I don't think I am slow though, but that is all relative to the competition, usually guys of similar, or better skill level.

I have to admit that I got to A and really didn't know how to shoot/play this game. It has taken the next year and half to change my style completely and start to improve again. I have recently seen the results, gradually improve. It probably doesn't look that much different to anyone else, but I can see the points and times, the match % at majors, and the ease of the shooting and moving, all getting better. I use a lot of statistics from match data, as I shoot 5 or more per month.

[Flyin40]

Thanks, I understand better than I did before.  Would you consider it pushing when in practice, using par times, that I constantly lower them until I have to be dead on exerted to hit the draw, reload, or whatever the drill is?  I try to start slow and lower them until I am having trouble making it happen, then loosen the par time .1 until I can get it again most of the time.  If that is pushing, then I suppose I have been doing it, mostly at home in dry fire exercise. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lowering the par time is pushing yourself. You lower the par time until you have trouble. The you bump it back up. After practing awhile you start to become comfortable at the lower par time. Maybe not 100% comfortable but it comes. The more you do it the more profiencent you become at that speed. It shouldn't be the sole thing your practice. Its just a part.

You can transfer it to other things like splits and transitions. If you have a set speed you practice for transitions that will transfer directly to matches. Nothing wrong with that. If you push yourself in your transitions and target aquistion( but I really stress this , you still have to have the main goal of accuracy/seeing) you can be conservative/back off some compared to pratice and in a match your transitions will start speeding up in matches. What happens is you learn to see what you need to see faster so you don't have to wait as long to find the correct sight picture, you find it quicker and end up shooting faster. Your not trying/pushing yourself to shoot faster you can just see faster.

I'll put some times down as an example

Practice Match

Draw 1.3 1.3

split .25 .25

trans .30 .30

split .25 .25

trans .30 .30

split .25 .25

Your practice dictates how you shoot the match, the same

The next shows the time where you start to lose technique and have trouble. You back it off in matches but still end up being faster than before

Practice Match

Draw .9 sec 1.1

split .18 .22

trans .20 .24

split .18 .22

trans .20 .24

spilt .18 .22

Doing it this way helps me improve.

As far as matches I'm with you that you should back off to 90% as compared to practice. You can be smooth and in control and still perform at a higher level.

My problem is I have two children and I work afternoons. I see my children in the morning. I'm just not willing to go practice instead of spending time with my kids.

So at this point I don't live fire practice. I can only try to improve and work on things at matches right now. Just the way it is for me at this point. I do dryfire at night.

Flyin40

[Flyin40]

I have been thinking more and more about indexing close targets. Who out there just indexes on close targets without the sight??? Who uses the sights regardless of distance. I have done both. I haven't worked on index on close targets to trust it enough without using the sights. I always use the sights/dot. Does it lead to a tendency of less visual patience even on those close targets. I know I seen Blake shoot a target and his head go to the next target before the shot fired. IF it fired it was awlful close. Do you approach it the same way as sights??? Make sure you finish the shot and follow through?? Its easy enough to rush a shot with sights but is indexing even easier to rush on those close targets?? Just curious...

Flyin40

[jnshapiro]

Flying40, that's something that I feel qualified to answer, and that sure doesn't happen often on this board! I do a lot of fast shooting on large/close targets (Cowboy). I can tell you exactly what I see during a string.

I see the sights, however I'm focused on the target. The sights are a rapidly moving blur. However, they stop moving the moment they are where I am looking at the target. That's the moment the shot fires. I can not tell you when I pulled the trigger, or even that I did. The gun just goes off. Then everything is a blur again until the instant that the shot fires on the next target. For that one instant, everything is clear.

When shooting with a target focus like this it's easy to miss your target (whether it's the whole target or just the A zone). I find that when I miss, it's because my eyes missed the spot on the target that I want to hit and I didn't stop the shot and let it happen. Most of the time I can pull the gun back to target, but not always.

You shoot where you look. If you aren't looking at the right spot on the target, you're just not going to hit it.

Does that help to answer your question? I don't know if it did or not, but it was the best I can do.

Joel

[iweiny]

First pushing is only a part of the practice. Its used to learn what its like to perform at a higher level. Even while practing this way the goal stays the same. Accuracy(seeing) is the main goal but developing the ability to see faster is the secondary goal.

I have seen so many guys so focused on accuracy that it hurts them. They never miss, always get A's but complain because they are slow. The goal should never change but pushing the limits should. Your limits should change frequently. If they don't that means your stagnant. Staying the same, not getting better or the progress is so slow that it is crawling.

I was going to start yet another post on this topic but did a search first and found this. Looking forward to my next local match, the first since Limited Nationals, I have been telling myself I am going to start pushing the speed aspects of my shooting. I have been one of those "get all A's" and don't seem fast type of people. I have been getting steadily faster since starting IPSC but the last 3 months of classifier updates my average has gone down.

Here is my theory for "pushing" the speed. Perhaps others will have comments on it:

The problem is that I don't "see" fast enough. However, how do you make yourself "see" faster? Brian says in his book that shooting is a journey and you need to experience it as you go. "It is all practice". Therefore, in order to see faster I might have to push past the seeing I currently do. I must experience it and get used to going/seeing that fast. This includes everything I do. Moving from position to position, splits, transitions etc. I must drive the gun, get agressive, and shoot without hesitation. As I embark on this journey I will undoubtedly _not_ see many things. But that is ok, IF I am seeing more than I used to. The only downside to this is that I might lose my visual patience which I feel is my strong point. That is the dangerous cliff edge which I must push out to and not fall off of...

Thoughts?

Ira

[shred]

I think the trick for "over-seers" is to learn the other side of "see what you need to see". The "see only what you need to see" part.

I don't feel like I see any faster now than I did when I was a B-shooter, but the times are a lot lower because I'm focused on what I need to see.

I think of it like driving on the highway.. If you pull right out and zoom up to 70 after not driving for a while, it feels fast.. Half an hour later, speed up to 80 and everything looks pretty normal. Drop back down to 60 or 70 and it feels like you're crawling along.. You've re-focused your attention..

[iweiny]

I think the trick for "over-seers" is to learn the other side of "see what you need to see". The "see only what you need to see" part.

I don't feel like I see any faster now than I did when I was a B-shooter, but the times are a lot lower because I'm focused on what I need to see.

Ok, this makes sence but how do you learn that? At some point either practice, or matches, you have to push past the point of seeing what you need to see and then back off until you find the proper point, right?

I know I am an "over-seeer" (I like that term) but at some point I have to see to little to know, "oops that was not enough because it was a D or mike", right?

Then there is the issue of training to see things you did not before. I know there have been times when I "saw" the sight right there, yet the target does not lie, it was a mike. How do you train to see what you have been missing?

Thanks,

Ira

[Flexmoney]

First a disclaimer...I hate "cadence shooting". To me, that takes a shooter away from allowing the vision to guide the shooting.

However, it can be a useful tool to help a shooter get over the hump (then stick it back in the toolbox when you are down with it...as it's not the proper tool for the rest of the shooting job.)

OK...

Pretend that your gun is fully-automatic. Find a cycle rate that your finger can manage. Keep that cycle rate the same for splits and for transitions. The gun needs to be going off as if it were full-auto. Your job is to provide the platform and to get the gun steered onto a target between shots.

Start with a cycle rate (cadence) that is easy for you to do. Then, go with a progressively faster cycle rate. Gradually increase the cadence as you go along.

Use 3-5 paper targets, 7-10 yards, spaced with 1-3y between them (as you progress, shuffle those variables around..even within an array).

two shots on each target.

Remember....

You are NOT after this:

BANG..BANG.........BANG..BANG.........BANG..BANG

You are looking for:

BANG...BANG...BANG...BANG...BANG...BANG

[shred]

I think the trick for "over-seers" is to learn the other side of "see what you need to see". The "see only what you need to see" part.

I don't feel like I see any faster now than I did when I was a B-shooter, but the times are a lot lower because I'm focused on what I need to see.

Ok, this makes sence but how do you learn that? At some point either practice, or matches, you have to push past the point of seeing what you need to see and then back off until you find the proper point, right?

That's it-- you have to push and see what you can get away with and what you can't. Brian's focus types in his book is also a great guide to what you need to see.

Triple-Six is a drill I got from Max for training this-- Set 3 targets, one at 7 yards, one at 15 and one at 25. 3 strings per run. String 1, six shots on T1. String 2, six shots on T2, String 3, six shots on T3. Score is the total time for all 3 strings, plus 0.2 seconds per point down (misses are +3). The goal is to get the lowest adjusted time possible. Do that a bunch and you'll learn what you need to see and do on each target in order to get points most efficiently.

Do it while thinking about Brian's focus types and you'll realize 3 of them are in there..

[benos]

Ira,

I was typing in this the other day, then had to leave and lost it... By now, you, Flex, and shred broke it down nicely. So I'll just hit a couple high points.

You have to push in practice. So you can close the gap between what you saw and what actually happened. (What you saw is what you thought happened, and what actually happened is where the bullets hit the target.)

Over the years, I learned a lot by doing that. Eventually you'll learn that, the more you see, the more the bullets will go where you want them to, with very little effort on your part.

But that's practice. If you don't see anything or don't hit anything, you can do it over. In the match, it's a whole new world. You have one chance to show your buddies and competitors what you can do. That's when it's so easy to be too careful. So, learn to practice (close the gap), in matches. First in local matches, of course.

Practice is for learning to shoot. Matches are for learning to shoot matches. You won't feel the same or see the same way in either one. So don't try to and don't compare them too much.

be

[EricW]

I just got done and home from Day 1 of Manny Bragg's Intermediate IPSC class. I learned at least one thing. Nationally-ranked GM's don't see faster than most of us. They simply have the discipline to trigger the shot properly when they see what they need to see.

You know this is the case when you hear "Well, that was a hell of lot faster than I would have shot it, so either you're a lot better than me, or..."

And yes, I was the guy who shot faster than Manny...and also dropped more points...a lot more.

[benos]

That's funny you said that regarding Manny. I remember watching (a year or so ago) a video of him just rippping a string apart... and I wondered if anyone who saw him shoot or watched that video would "get" - just what you said... Do you think he's shooting that quickly and not seeing anything?

I've probably said this before... One time at the Steel Challenge The Jet's dad asked me, "In your book, why didn't you talk about shooting quickly"? I said that you have to see quickly in order to shoot quickly, so I talked about seeing.

be

[iweiny]

You know this is the case when you hear "Well, that was a hell of lot faster than I would have shot it, so either you're a lot better than me, or..."

I have to take more classes. Thanks for the ideas guys. Now I just have to get to the range.

One last thing, I did notice while dry firing this week. This explains why my transistions are so slow... I don't transition with my knees. What does this have to do with seeing? Well, as a result the gun and sights are all shaky when they come into the target. It left me wondering if perhaps I do see better than I think but perhaps my technique is such that I am not "solid"? So what I am seeing allows me to settle to make the shot? In the end I am sure it is this AND not seeing which I need to work on.

Thanks so much for all the responses. Brian, I really like your advice. Both my wife and I don't get a chance to practice much and as a result I think the weaknesses with our technique are starting to show.

Thanks again,

Ira

Edited September 29, 2006 by iweiny

[benos]

Ira,

After experimenting for many years, I realized it never helped me to "think about my body" while I was shooting. It worked better for me and was more reliable if I kept things as simple as possible. For example, "find the target, shoot the target" was my best mantra to handle every target on the range. Whether it be a first shot, a transition, or the first target coming into a new array.

Then, on top of that, if "your sights are all shaky" when the arrive on a target, just relax the tension in your upper body a bit.

be

[EricW]

You know this is the case when you hear "Well, that was a hell of lot faster than I would have shot it, so either you're a lot better than me, or..."

I have to take more classes. Thanks for the ideas guys. Now I just have to get to the range.

I recommend taking Manny's class just for the sake of hearing "you should be shooting that with about point-five splits" come out of a top contender's mouth in person. There's a world of difference between what the internet thinks are Grandmaster skills and the skills that win matches.