Fall and shooting from knees

[RadarTech]

Hit. Per the rules target sticks don’t exist.
Too easy.[emoji4]

Go re-read 2.2.3.3 again...
Is it a vision barrier or other construct?
And then 2.2.3.4..

[Sarge]

9.1.7 Target sticks and barrier supports (see 2.2.3.5) are neither Hard Cover nor Soft Cover. Shots which have passed wholly or partially through target sticks and or barrier supports, and which hit a cardboard or metal target will count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

[DKorn]

2 minutes ago, RadarTech said:

 

Go re-read 2.2.3.3 again...
Is it a vision barrier or other construct?
And then 2.2.3.4..

 

 

Would you say that a no shoot that doesn’t go to 5’9” or higher goes from ground to the top of the target? What about a regular target? Is it now impossible to shoot a mike that goes under a target? How would you score a shot that goes under a target, if you’re going to imply that the target goes from ground to height constructed (or infinity if above 5’9”)?

[RadarTech]

9.1.7 Target sticks and barrier supports (see 2.2.3.5) are neither Hard Cover nor Soft Cover. Shots which have passed wholly or partially through target sticks and or barrier supports, and which hit a cardboard or metal target will count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

But does that negate 2.2.3.4?

[RadarTech]

 
Would you say that a no shoot that doesn’t go to 5’9” or higher goes from ground to the top of the target? What about a regular target? Is it now impossible to shoot a mike that goes under a target? How would you score a shot that goes under a target, if you’re going to imply that the target goes from ground to height constructed (or infinity if above 5’9”)?

If it is a vision barrier wouldn’t it be the same as a wall?

[DKorn]

6 minutes ago, RadarTech said:

If it is a vision barrier wouldn’t it be the same as a wall?

 

A no shoot isn’t a vision barrier. It’s a target. 

[HoMiE]

3 hours ago, Sarge said:

I can read the rule you quoted all day but can’t find where the solid plane only pertains to shooting. 

  So, here’s the thing. I’m not trying to argue but I am saying the rule should actually say what you imply it is saying so everybody can be on the same page. I hav talked with some RM’s who say it was fine while other RM’s say they would not allow it. THAT is the problem.

USPSA rule book is based on the premise of freestyle. Most of the rules are things you can’t do. If it doesn’t say you can’t, then you can, plain and simple. You can’t give out procedurals because that wasn’t the intent of your stage design. If you don’t want people hanging off walls to shoot, simply move the wall away from fault line or use a wall that goes completely to ground. 

[DKorn]

7 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

USPSA rule book is based on the premise of freestyle. Most of the rules are things you can’t do. If it doesn’t say you can’t, then you can, plain and simple. You can’t give out procedurals because that wasn’t the intent of your stage design. If you don’t want people hanging off walls to shoot, simply move the wall away from fault line or use a wall that goes completely to ground. 

 

So am I allowed to duck underneath walls?  

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, DKorn said:

Also, take “it only applies to shooting” to its extreme - am I allowed to duck under a wall as a shortcut on a stage? Does this mean any time the stage designer wants to break up a shooting area and force you to go around something that they need to go to the trouble of making it actually go all the way to the ground?

 

On the other hand, if they are solid for all purposes, at what point do we apply penalties (and what penalties would apply)? Am I allowed to have my foot sticking out slightly on the ground below a wall, or is that a foot fault for faulting an imaginary line? What if I drop a magazine and it bounces past a wall? Can I get it back? If not, is it Range Equipment Failure since the (imaginary) wall should’ve stopped my mag from passing through it?

 

The rule says wall are hardcover. that pretty much only applies to shooting. I can't think of any references in the rules to hardcover regarding movement, dropping magazines, or faulting.
 

Occasionally you can find an overzealous RO who likes to screw shooters over who will come up with something like the imaginary foot fault (we were filling out the arb form at an area matcch when the MD talked some sense into the RM and CRO). Dunno about ducking under a wall. If your walls have a tall enough open section underneath to duck under, you might consider blocking it off when necessary.

[HoMiE]

12 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

So am I allowed to duck underneath walls?  

There is no rule that says you can’t. The rules simply state the walls that are 5’9” or higher are meant to go from ground to infinity. So if a competitor where to do that for whatever reason, you’d have to deem it a forbidden action and say you can’t do it and give a reshoot. If you don’t want someone to go under or be able to use the lower edge of a wall for support, then don’t build it that way. 

 

This came up last year too. 

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by HoMiE
Added link

[ChuckS]

4 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

There is no rule that says you can’t. The rules simply state the walls that are 5’9” or higher are meant to go from ground to infinity. So if a competitor where to do that for whatever reason, you’d have to deem it a forbidden action and say you can’t do it and give a reshoot. If you don’t want someone to go under or be able to use the lower edge of a wall for support, then don’t build it that way. 

2.3.1.1 b. The declaration of a Forbidden Action cannot be used as a means of compelling or limiting competitor movement within a course of fire (e.g., to prevent a shooter from “cutting the corner” on an L-shaped shooting area). Except as provided in Rule 1.1.5.1, a course designer wishing to compel, or limit competitor movement must do so using target placement, vision barriers, physical barriers or off-limits lines.

 

That said, all barriers go to the ground (unless stated in the WSB), so what should be done if someone does the under the wall roll?

[HoMiE]

3 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

2.3.1.1 b. The declaration of a Forbidden Action cannot be used as a means of compelling or limiting competitor movement within a course of fire (e.g., to prevent a shooter from “cutting the corner” on an L-shaped shooting area). Except as provided in Rule 1.1.5.1, a course designer wishing to compel, or limit competitor movement must do so using target placement, vision barriers, physical barriers or off-limits lines.

 

That said, all barriers go to the ground (unless stated in the WSB), so what should be done if someone does the under the wall roll?

Current rule book has no penalty that you can just assign or give out. Most shooters understand the rule from ground to infinity, therefore you can’t go under or over wall. Course designer could build the wall so it was not advantageous to go under or could use off-limit line behind area of wall so now you could apply a procedural for going into the off-limit area. That seems like it would suffice not abusing the forbidden action at level 1 match. As for using your foot to hang off wall, since that wire to keep pigeons isn’t allowed, you’d have to build it so they can’t or grease it up so they won’t do that.